FSD features to start rolling out in August...

[brkaus]

Won't an EAP only car eventually do a panic stop rather than running a stop sign? It will have the full perception on the environment as an FSD car, but it won't operate a route automatically off highway.

Same for a non EAP car. If the driver is drifting out of their lane, shouldn’t it “just correct” and stay centered so it doesn’t cause an accident?

No...

 

[d21mike]

Won't an EAP only car eventually do a panic stop rather than running a stop sign? It will have the full perception on the environment as an FSD car, but it won't operate a route automatically off highway.

Of course pure speculation but not sure it has to do a "panic stop". Some argue that EAP will work exactly like it does now (after FSD) and if the driver does not stop it will run the stop sign. I think if it sees a STOP SIGN (because it has to do it for FSD) and there is no car at the stop sign it could decide to disengage EAP and come to a stop. Remember with EAP the driver would have to do the exact same thing or the car would just run the stop sign. And at present the car is not able to see the STOP Sign. But when "FSD Features" start to come out it may be able to see the stop sign and then improve on EAP at the same time. Again, speculation based on my belief it would be best to do so for safety.

 

[Knightshade]

Of course pure speculation but not sure it has to do a "panic stop". Some argue that EAP will work exactly like it does now (after FSD) and if the driver does not stop it will run the stop sign. I think if it sees a STOP SIGN (because it has to do it for FSD) and there is no car at the stop sign it could decide to disengage EAP and come to a stop.

Except without FSD it doesn't have to see the stop sign at all.

The software that recognizes and responds to local-traffic items like stop signs might only become unlocked when you pay for FSD.

So for those who only pay for EAP they would see EAP continue working just like it does today- not recognizing, or reacting to, stop signs- because that functionality isn't part of EAP, has never been advertised as part of EAP, and has never been intended to be part of EAP.

 

[d21mike]

Except without FSD it doesn't have to see the stop sign at all.

The software that recognizes and responds to local-traffic items like stop signs might only become unlocked when you pay for FSD.

So for those who only pay for EAP they would see EAP continue working just like it does today- not recognizing, or reacting to, stop signs- because that functionality isn't part of EAP, has never been advertised as part of EAP, and has never been intended to be part of EAP.

Exactly. You are the one I was talking about that feels it may work exactly the same as it does now. You could very well be right. My position is I hope you are wrong. And I am strictly coming from a safety position. I simply believe that is is safer for the car (under control of EAP) to come to a stop at a stop sign when it can prevent the car from potently running a stop sign and maybe killing somebody. It really does not reduce the value of FSD just because it makes EAP safer in this way. To be clear, I would not do this for cars that are not running under EAP. i.e. where the driver is in complete control. I am only talking about when the car is being partially controlled by EAP. Again, just my opinion and speculation.

 

[daniel]

I'm honestly not sure why you getting hung up on this. This is basic marketing/sales but with tesla, I know they're less misleading than your next leading auto manufacturer. I have other cars with safety features which have been sold as amazing but have been total *sugar*. The difference is that tesla will continue to improve while all other cars safety features will remains piles of *sugar*. I'll take tesla with continuous improvements/"occasional set backs" any day over Mercedes, etc.

Tesla makes the best cars you can buy today. There's no reason for them to over-sell the capabilities of the cars. I want them to be more honest about what the cars can do because I think in the long run it will be more beneficial for them and for the future of electric transportation, in which Tesla is the leader.

Won't an EAP only car eventually do a panic stop rather than running a stop sign? It will have the full perception on the environment as an FSD car, but it won't operate a route automatically off highway.

You are assuming the EAP and so-called "FSD" cars will have the same hardware and software. This might not be the case. I don't believe the hardware in today's Model 3 will be adequate for true full-self-driving. And there's no reason they need to install the same hardware. I believe Tesla will make every car as safe as they can make it, but that does not mean they will install hardware or software you have not paid for.

Once Level 5 cars are demonstrably safer than human-driven cars, it would not surprise me if Tesla stops making cars that are not self-driving. But for now, they're just selling a package of BETA features that will be nice to have but will require the driver to remain vigilant.

BTW, here's what Cadillac says about Super-cruise on their web site:

Your complete attention is required at all times while driving, even while using Super Cruise.

HANDS IN YOUR LAP. EYES ON THE ROAD.

Our proprietary head tracking software helps make sure your eyes are on the road, and alerts you when you need to pay more attention or take back control.

Super-cruise requires you to remain alert and vigilant and remain able to take control at any time. They let you take your hands off the wheel, but they watch your face to make sure your eyes are on the road and will nag you or disengage super-cruise if you fail to keep your eyes on the road.

 

[Knightshade]

Exactly. You are the one I was talking about that feels it may work exactly the same as it does now. You could very well be right. My position is I hope you are wrong. And I am strictly coming from a safety position. I simply believe that is is safer for the car (under control of EAP) to come to a stop at a stop sign when it can prevent the car from potently running a stop sign and maybe killing somebody. It really does not reduce the value of FSD just because it makes EAP safer in this way. To be clear, I would not do this for cars that are not running under EAP. i.e. where the driver is in complete control. I am only talking about when the car is being partially controlled by EAP. Again, just my opinion and speculation.

Thing is- we have evidence from current vehicles that they won't do this.

I mean- a non-EAP car would absolutely be safer in stop-n-go traffic with TACC slowing you down before you hit the car in front of you that you didn't notice stopped (like your example of not noticing a stop sign).

It doesn't though.

Because that's a feature of EAP- so if you don't have EAP you don't get TACC- and you hit the car in front of you.


Same deal with EAP and features that are only part of FSD- you don't get those because they're not part of the package you purchased.

 

[SlicedBr3ad]

Thing is- we have evidence from current vehicles that they won't do this.

I mean- a non-EAP car would absolutely be safer in stop-n-go traffic with TACC slowing you down before you hit the car in front of you that you didn't notice stopped (like your example of not noticing a stop sign).

It doesn't though.

Because that's a feature of EAP- so if you don't have EAP you don't get TACC- and you hit the car in front of you.


Same deal with EAP and features that are only part of FSD- you don't get those because they're not part of the package you purchased.

They're still a business and need these finances to develop more stuff. If they can sell it, they will. I agree that they will likely put most items behind fsd wall, exception being what they already mentioned on website. I bet if they could walk that back, they would for at least auto lane changes which is the only thing that falls into fsd category under eap.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Because that's a feature of EAP- so if you don't have EAP you don't get TACC- and you hit the car in front of you.

Don't all Model 3s have automatic emergency braking? You don't think that Tesla will upgrade it to stop for stationary objects once they have the capability? They're really going to say our automatic emergency braking works in some situations but you have to pay for a software upgrade to FSD for it work in all situations?
So you really think that the difference between EAP and FSD on the highway will be that EAP will hit stationary objects and FSD won't?

 

[Knightshade]

Don't all Model 3s have automatic emergency braking?

Sure.

it doesn't function above 25 mph though.


so to give a specific example-

Car A has EAP. Car B does not.

Right now, today, Car A can use TACC to drive in highway traffic at 65 mph- and if traffic ahead suddenly drops to 40 his car will safely slow to match.

Car B using regular CC, driving at 65 mph, will slam right into the traffic ahead.

Car B has the same hardware. So Tesla could make it slow down to match too.

But they don't. Because that guy didn't pay for TACC/EAP.

So we have direct evidence Tesla is not going to give away paid features simply to avoid any possible case of a driver not paying enough attention.

Thus by the same token we can consider it incredibly likely that once FSD learns to recognize and stop at stop signs or red lights, you will need to pay for FSD to get that feature and they won't give it away free on EAP cars (or cars with neither) for exactly the same reason TACC isn't free on non-EAP cars, even though it'd make the car "safer" in some situations where the driver isn't doing his job.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Sure.

it doesn't function above 25 mph though.


so to give a specific example-

Car A has EAP. Car B does not.

Right now, today, Car A can use TACC to drive in highway traffic at 65 mph- and if traffic ahead suddenly drops to 40 his car will safely slow to match.

Car B using regular CC, driving at 65 mph, will slam right into the traffic ahead.

Car B has the same hardware. So Tesla could make it slow down to match too.

But they don't. Because that guy didn't pay for TACC/EAP.

So we have direct evidence Tesla is not going to give away paid features simply to avoid any possible case of a driver not paying enough attention.

Thus by the same token we can consider it incredibly likely that once FSD learns to recognize and stop at stop signs or red lights, you will need to pay for FSD to get that feature and they won't give it away free on EAP cars (or cars with neither) for exactly the same reason TACC isn't free on non-EAP cars, even though it'd make the car "safer" in some situations where the driver isn't doing his job.

AEB is identical on a Tesla with the EAP package. and without the EAP package. Assuming it's a HW2/HW2.5 car.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

It seems like a lot of you are extremely bullish on the initial FSD release being stop light, and stop sign recognition.

Where it not only see's it, but it stops as well.

I see that as being rather unlikely as the car can't see stopped cars as it is right now.

Having the ability to stop at a stop light would lead people to using AP more on surface streets, and highways with stop lights. This would to more crashes into stopped cars like firetrucks, police vehicles, etc.

My bet is we won't see anything. It's going to be the same thing as before where Elon tweeted that we'd start seeing features soon for FSD, but it never panned out.

Just like the whole firmware 8.0 never matched expectation.

This is what Elon wrote on the Tesla blog about firmware 8.0

“the car should almost always hit the brakes correctly even if a UFO were to land on the freeway in zero visibility conditions,”

We know the car can't do that.

 

[Daniel in SD]

I'm trying to picture the conversation at the Tesla store.
Customer: What does EAP do?
Tesla: It will drive you onramp to offramp on the highway. It will even go through interchanges and change lanes automatically!
Customer: So, I can just relax and have it drive me?
Tesla: No, you have to pay attention.
Customer: Why?
Tesla: Because if you don't you may run into stationary objects.
Customer: That seems bad. I heard that Teslas are self driving.
Tesla: You have to purchase FSD to get self driving.
Customer: Will it do anything else for me on the highway?
Tesla: No, the only difference on the highway is that it won't run into things.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I'm trying to picture the conversation at the Tesla store.
Customer: What does EAP do?
Tesla: It will drive you onramp to offramp on the highway. It will even go through interchanges and change lanes automatically!
Customer: So, I can just relax and have it drive me?
Tesla: No, you have to pay attention.
Customer: Why?
Tesla: Because if you don't you may run into stationary objects.
Customer: That seems bad. I heard that Teslas are self driving.
Tesla: You have to purchase FSD to get self driving.
Customer: Will it do anything else for me on the highway?
Tesla: No, the only difference on the highway is that it won't run into things.

Without regulatory approval the whole FSD is really quite silly.

All the responsibility, and none of the driving? You'd be better of allowing your 12 year old kid to drive.

 

[snakeopus121]

Reading speed limits and traffic lights????? You guys are way too far ahead

Let's start out with the FSD basics that are currently lacking:

1) Don't crash into this:

2) Don't crash into this:

3) Don't crash into this:

Those would be best first steps to FSD I think...

 

[TaoJones]

Reading speed limits and traffic lights????? You guys are way too far ahead

Let's start out with the FSD basics that are currently lacking:

1) Don't crash into this:

2) Don't crash into this:

3) Don't crash into this:

Those would be best first steps to FSD I think...

Except that speed limit signs are both recognized and reacted to by AP1 today.

Traffic lights are a more difficult problem than stop signs, and stop signs that are adjacent multi-lane roadways are more difficult than those adjacent single-lane roadways.

Presuming camera recognition *and* reaction (see AP1 and comma.ai’s 10cm GPS solution) followed by redundancy with HD maps, single lane stop sign recognition may not be that far off from actually being publicly available.

Shades of the December 2016 video all over again.

 

[snakeopus121]

Except that speed limit signs are both recognized and reacted to by AP1 today.

Traffic lights are a more difficult problem than stop signs, and stop signs that are adjacent multi-lane roadways are more difficult than those adjacent single-lane roadways.

Presuming camera recognition *and* reaction (see AP1 and comma.ai’s 10cm GPS solution) followed by redundancy with HD maps, single lane stop sign recognition may not be that far off from actually being publicly available.

Shades of the December 2016 video all over again.

AP2 and beyond cannot use AP1 technology, soooo I think my statements are still accurate

 

[daniel]

Sure.

[automatic emergency braking] doesn't function above 25 mph though.

From the owners manual:

Automatic Emergency Braking operates only when driving between approximately 7 mph (10 km/h) and 90 mph (150 km/h).

Elsewhere: It will reduce speed by 25 mph and then disengage, presumably because by then the driver is expected to take over, though I'm not sure at all of the logic behind this decision.

... the car can't see stopped cars as it is right now...

When there is a stopped car at a stop sign or red light in my lane, my Model 3 will slow down, pull up to the stopped car, and stop.

There is a very curvy road near me without lane markers. When there is a parked car in the (unmarked) parking lane, my Model 3 will slow down abruptly, apparently miscalculating that this stopped car is in front of me. (In a straight line, it is in front of me, but it's actually in the (unmarked) parking lane to my right.)

My Model 3 certainly does see stopped cars.

 

[d21mike]

Thing is- we have evidence from current vehicles that they won't do this.

I mean- a non-EAP car would absolutely be safer in stop-n-go traffic with TACC slowing you down before you hit the car in front of you that you didn't notice stopped (like your example of not noticing a stop sign).

It doesn't though.

Because that's a feature of EAP- so if you don't have EAP you don't get TACC- and you hit the car in front of you.


Same deal with EAP and features that are only part of FSD- you don't get those because they're not part of the package you purchased.

I do not agree that is the same. A non-EAP Car or a even a EAP Car but EAP is not engaged is fully controlled by the Driver. Like any other car on the road without a driver assist package. To me that is completely different then if the Car is under to control of EAP while the Car is doing the driving and acceleration and braking. An EAP Car must keep track of many things on the road to do that safely and when FSD is fully released it would naturally have the ability to see stop signs and traffic lights. Now maybe it only flashes a RED warning for the driver to take over (like it does now for some things it can not handle) or maybe even come to a stop is pure speculation but I believe it will do something different then it does now which is simply to run the stop sign or red light (which is extremely dangerous the other drivers) if the driver does not intervene and take over.

 

[Knightshade]

AEB is identical on a Tesla with the EAP package. and without the EAP package. Assuming it's a HW2/HW2.5 car.

Don't recall where I said otherwise?

I'm trying to picture the conversation at the Tesla store.
Customer: What does EAP do?
Tesla: It will drive you onramp to offramp on the highway. It will even go through interchanges and change lanes automatically!
Customer: So, I can just relax and have it drive me?
Tesla: No, you have to pay attention.
Customer: Why?
Tesla: Because if you don't you may run into stationary objects.
Customer: That seems bad. I heard that Teslas are self driving.
Tesla: You have to purchase FSD to get self driving.
Customer: Will it do anything else for me on the highway?
Tesla: No, the only difference on the highway is that it won't run into things.

Except I already gave an example of how there could be other differences on the highway as well... so your conversation doesn't make much sense in that context.

From the owners manual:



Elsewhere: It will reduce speed by 25 mph and then disengage, presumably because by then the driver is expected to take over, though I'm not sure at all of the logic behind this decision.

Right- 25 is what I said.

Also note another thing Tesla said about AEB-

Automatic Emergency Braking, a new collision Avoidance Assist feature, is designed to automatically engage the brakes to reduce the impact of an unavoidable frontal collision with another vehicle.

it doesn't stop you to prevent an accident. It reduces your speed to reduce the damage caused by the accident you're about to have.


So if you are doing 75, in a non-EAP car with regular CC, and there's a vehicle ahead of you doing 20 due to traffic or whatever- AEB may reduce your car to 50, turn off, and let you smack into the back of the other car.

While an EAP car with TACC engaged at 75 would slow you down to match the speed of the car in front of you and thus avoid an accident.

TACC makes the car 'safer' in that situation but they still don't give you that safety for free to non-EAP owners.

So it makes no sense why anyone thinks they'll give FSD features for free.

I do not agree that is the same. A non-EAP Car or a even a EAP Car but EAP is not engaged is fully controlled by the Driver. Like any other car on the road without a driver assist package.

So... just like an FSD car with FSD turned off would be.

And since they don't give EAP features that would improve safety for free to non_EAP cars (see above example with TACC vs regular CC), they wouldn't give FSD ones to EAP cars using exactly the same reasoning.

 

[d21mike]

So... just like an FSD car with FSD turned off would be.

And since they don't give EAP features that would improve safety for free to non_EAP cars (see above example with TACC vs regular CC), they wouldn't give FSD ones to EAP cars using exactly the same reasoning.

I still disagree with your point. I am talking about when EAP is engaged / active. Much different then when EAP is not engaged. CC is simply controlling speed it is far from driving the car like EAP is doing and all that is required for EAP to drive the car.

Anyway, we have debated this to death. Lets come back to this after FSD is fully released (or at least STOP Sign detection is release) and see how that affects EAP.