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Fukuta supply role to Tesla
- Thread starter FrozenCanuck
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hockeythug
Active Member
Mods, please end this thread. I am welcome to other opinions but this nonsense has gone on long enough.
Servo has to do with control of the motor - an AC Induction motor can have Servo control - read http://www.baldor.com/Shared/manuals/1205-394.pdf
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Elon is mis-representing to keep is stock price up.
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Elon is mis-representing to keep is stock price up.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
Ditto. Last year, when we organized pizza for the factory, a group of us were given a 'behind the scenes' tour. Motors are made in-house.
@Avenger is just another person making stuff up to try to discredit Tesla and drive the stock down. No matter what facts are presented to him, over and over again, he is going to ignore them and persist in his fantasy world. What is especially hilarious is when he says he is "done" and then he immediately posts again with more delusional nonsense.
pz1975
Active Member
My god Avenger can you please just stop? You've made your point - we can choose whether to believe you or not (obviously everyone following this sad thread can see your motives), and now you just keep repeating yourself over and over. Finally you confessed to the main point of all of this is that Elon is a liar and manipulator and the stock is overpriced and the company will go bankrupt. This thread reminds me of the vegan seats thread where I don't want to click on it, but it just keeps sucking me back for entertainment value.
No, you're misrepresenting to keep the stock price down. Mods, please banish both of us.
AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
I am neither the biggest Tesla worshipper nor a technical expert on the differences between various kinds of induction motors.
But I must say, to me you seem to be a person of very one-dimensional thinking.
Which, sadly, seems to be the case for many stock analysts and explains why they so often get their analysis' completely wrong.
Oh and about Fukuta: I know nothing about that company, whether it is small or large, whether the quality of their products is good or bad. But I know there are many very small companies who make great products that are vital to some of the best cars around the world.
To imply that using components made by a small company should in any way be a negative thing is laughable at best.
The reverse logic would be that only components made by huge industry giants would be of merit.
Ok, then BMC should still be thriving today, and the Morris Marina would be one of the best cars on the planet :tongue:
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Wow, this thread took off, old "Avenger" really got wound up.
You would be wrong of course. AC vs DC has nothing to do with different power levels.
To be clear the main traction pack is DC, all batteries are DC. It gets inverted to AC in the inverter.
Though he obviously thinks otherwise, all Avenger has "proven" is that Tesla buys products from Fukuta, which was never a secret or in doubt. In summary it appears that Fukuta supplies parts for the rotor and stator of at least one of the traction motors, and also supplies other servo motors, probably for the factory. We know Tesla builds motors at the factory from parts they get elsewhere. I don't expect Tesla to mine the copper and refine it, or draw it into wire. They buy it from someone else.
Avenger's entire premise seems to be that Tesla has "motor" problems because they buy motors from Fukuta. The first error is blaming the motor for gearing/bearing/spline problems in the drivetrain. If the problems are in the gearbox it's not a motor problem. If the problems are in the inverter it's not a motor problem. If the problem is in the motor that's a manufacturing problem, since Tesla is building the motors. If some part from Fukuta is the problem, of which there is no evidence, then that's still Tesla's problem for not checking the parts in quality control. I'm quite sure if Fukuta were shipping bad parts Tesla would let them know, and likely change suppliers.
You would be wrong of course. AC vs DC has nothing to do with different power levels.
To be clear the main traction pack is DC, all batteries are DC. It gets inverted to AC in the inverter.
Though he obviously thinks otherwise, all Avenger has "proven" is that Tesla buys products from Fukuta, which was never a secret or in doubt. In summary it appears that Fukuta supplies parts for the rotor and stator of at least one of the traction motors, and also supplies other servo motors, probably for the factory. We know Tesla builds motors at the factory from parts they get elsewhere. I don't expect Tesla to mine the copper and refine it, or draw it into wire. They buy it from someone else.
Avenger's entire premise seems to be that Tesla has "motor" problems because they buy motors from Fukuta. The first error is blaming the motor for gearing/bearing/spline problems in the drivetrain. If the problems are in the gearbox it's not a motor problem. If the problems are in the inverter it's not a motor problem. If the problem is in the motor that's a manufacturing problem, since Tesla is building the motors. If some part from Fukuta is the problem, of which there is no evidence, then that's still Tesla's problem for not checking the parts in quality control. I'm quite sure if Fukuta were shipping bad parts Tesla would let them know, and likely change suppliers.
anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
I have met many people who simply cannot comprehend that Elon Musk's primary goal isn't to make more money for himself. There are a significant number of people who believe that Elon simply wants to pump up the stock price and then sell to another automaker. This stuff about electrifying transport and colonizing Mars is weird and even scary to some.
I wouldn't assume that Avenger is a short or a troll. Elon's unconventional thinking is weird and frightening to many people. Almost everyone I knew said I was throwing my $ away when I invested in TSLA in 2012, and the stock in 2015 is still far beyond their risk tolerance. That's ok. There's a reason index funds exist, and the average person can do very well in index funds. I keep all of my retirement accounts in index funds. The rest is play money.
Austin, Fukuta is a private company with a value of $50 mi US = approximately - and it is the key component of Tesla Motors valued at $30 Billion! In a rational world the $30Billion giant would have acquired Fukuta. Tesla Motors could have secured their advantage and have more complete control over the motor works for Tesla.
Since Fukuta does not supply drive train motors to Tesla they are not a critical supplier and there is no rational reason for Tesla to buy them.
Tesla has already "secured their advantage" by developing and building their drive train inhouse.
Tesla has already "secured their advantage" by developing and building their drive train inhouse.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Maybe, contrary to your assumption, there is nothing wrong with the motors at all, and Tesla is quite happy with Fukuta as is.
artsci
Sponsor
I didn't know customs documents include banner ads for Mavis Discount Tires. In making up your phony BS you could at least have stripped that out.
Some people confuse their opinions with actual facts. You appear to be one of them
Some people confuse their opinions with actual facts. You appear to be one of them
You seem to be amping up the idea that a servo motor = traction motor and discounting the fact that plenty of people throughout the past few years have actually seen motor fabrication at Tesla in Fremont. Whether or not a motor is a AC induction or synchronous has nothing to do with whether it is a servo motor or a traction motor or a stepper motor. Instead, the servo motor is likely more optimized for precise position, velocity, and acceleration (as well as deceleration) while a traction motor at the same mass likely is optimized for power, smoothness, and low noise. The traction motor likely doesn't need the same level of precise positioning nor precise acceleration and deceleration. It is common for large industrial servos to be AC induction, so likely you are seeing motors being sourced for the factory as parts of conveyor belts or lifts. Obviously the robots are mostly Kuka but there are plenty of reasons to have motors at the various manufacturing facilities that Tesla owns. There are even motors as part of the lifts to make the traction motors.
Work back on the number of shipments... you know the rough weight of Model S motors - there are at least 2 different motors at this point. You have to be able to account for over roughly 45,000 motors that Tesla put into the Model S's built this year so far (most are dual drive at this point). The problem comes identifying the mass of the parts that Fukuta does supply and therefore what percentage of the weight of the motor that represents. You can take your analysis from there, but the preponderance of evidence weighs against your theory.
Now to evaluate the risk to Tesla on a business level, even if Fukuta supplied all of the motor. If Tesla has the design of the motor, they can have it built for them by anyone including themselves. Let's say that the Tesla motor assembly lines that various people have seen in Fremont is fake. Let's say that Fukuta is in financial trouble and can no longer make motors for Tesla. Does that mean that Tesla cannot source motors anymore? No, it doesn't. Tesla has had to deal with supplier issues all this time, including suppliers that have let them down in quality, in quantity and so forth. That's one of the reasons why Tesla does so much itself. After all, most other automakers outsource all sorts of components to suppliers whom then outsource again, and sometimes again and again. A problem could crop up and often does, and the supplier is replaced and things move on. We are in the midst of Tesla being let down by the 2nd row seat manufacturer and so they are said screw it, we're insourcing. So the Model X production is delayed as Tesla brings that new production in house. So if there was a problem with Fukuta, Tesla would just replace that supplier with another. Or turn the "fake" line into a real line. Or, if a supplier can do it cheaper/better/etc, they could turn off their line and outsource. I fail to see why this is a material weakness for Tesla even if Fukuta supplied the motor completely.
You do also have the SKF people on record as supplying the ceramic bearings for Tesla's motors, so there's another avenue for you to check to see if SKF ships their bearings to Taiwan for assembly. Again, it doesn't really matter.
Matter of fact, many Tesla bears point out the idea that Tesla's AC induction motor has no IP moat since it's been done and easily supplied by any number of companies around the world. Note that no one else in the world of significant volume auto manufacturers uses AC induction motors and therefore all their motors have relatively low power output. Since many of them are more engaged with PHEVs, their motor efforts have not been towards high performance BEV motors. They have been preferring easier to design synchronous motors with permanent magnets with the complexity involving the transmission and coupling with ICE drivetrains to achieve performance. Even the Formula E motors, supplied by McLaren are a mere 200 kW (272 hp) and are DC synchronous. Tesla has spent a lot of time and effort developing their BEV AC induction motors from the original AC Propulsion 150 kW max motors. So you have to choose... Tesla is going through the school of hard knocks in AC induction motor design and fighting through the issues with real world products. It is likely that for higher power output combined with the efficiency requirements across the power band, everyone else will have to move to AC induction motors for high performance BEVs. That means in the 2018-2025 timeframe, these manufacturers will have to go through their own schools of hard knocks as they switch from motors designed for small, low power vehicles to motors designed for sports sedan or SUV BEVs. Right now, they are using permanent magnets which has a higher mineral input, which has a significant impact especially at orders of magnitude higher production volumes. Tesla's motors have no permanent magnets and therefore do not put pressure on sourcing those minerals. So as a Tesla bear, you have a choice... by putting more emphasis on Fukuta as a critical supplier, you are lending credence to the idea that Tesla has an IP or R&D moat surrounding high performance BEV motors.
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