"Full-Time" AWD Winter Mode

[Castlerock]

The alternate reality is hustling out the door at 5 AM and driving two gaps 20 mi on both dirt and pavement to get to a highway, as opposed to your romantic vision of the rally driver (music swelling in the background), slashing a loose rear end around the tundra. It was a better experience in an S6, A6, two A4s, Honda Pilot, 2 CRVs and a passat 4Mo Sport. Those all feel planted at all times. It is annoying to have that butt go loose on you when the desired behavior is steady as she goes. When you live in snow as opposed to visit it, and have a family of 5 drivers of varying abilities, you want it to just work. That is reality.

 

[coleAK]

I guess the true test would be to put the same tires on multiple vehicles and have them rally up a snowy/icy mountain road. I already know which one would win.

For years people have lamented the way electronic nannies cut power excessively, finally Tesla has fixed the problem by giving the control back to the driver at higher throttle settings while simultaneously improving the TC's stability and grip at lower throttle settings and people complain that the rear end moves around too much on snow/ice at higher throttle settings.

I feel like I've gone into an altenate reality.

So here you go again talking about spirited driving, “rally” and before you were talking about spirited winter driving, throttle steering the corners, vector breaking the inside wheels, and all your massive driving skill (while saying others must not have winter driving skill),... and your dash cam videos you posted were creeping along at I’m guessing all under 30 mph. Where is the “razor sharp” point it and throttle steer?

And a ford truck has almost zero ESC aids.

 

[coleAK]

What Hummer vs Tesla Video are you referring to? The one I posted, the Tesla (Model X) did awesome. Of course there are situations where a tall Hummer with studs would beat it. But in that Video, the Tesla (Model X) did great, to my eyes. I thought perhaps there were other parts of the Video where Hummer hammered the X. Not in that Video. I didn't see any "deep snow tests" (I just scanned it again).

I am curious how Model 3 would do in that identical situation (which I have been in). And tend to agree with folks of the Model 3 having a "rear bias" (i.e. "No Micro" slipping for me before car would move). Perhaps it was my poor driving skills. But I didn't have Video to show what the wheels were doing.

If I don't see a Video, I may do my own and compare my P3D- with X-Ice and Jeep Summit with Nokian R2 in AWD and 4-LO.
My guess is the Jeep in AWD will do similar to M3. But my Jeep in 4-LO would do better, just a hunch from past history (and not a ton of history with Model 3 yet, but some). When the Jeep is in AWD you hear and feel wheels slipping before it gets going (3 open diffs), much like the Model 3 AWD feels. In 4-LO (center diff locked), it just immediately goes. It's happened many times in the Jeep. I would think the Model 3 would be effectively like 4-LO (guaranteed power to front and back), but I think because of the rear wheel bias (for efficiency) it behaves more like AWD (like open differential between front and rear). It behaves like AWD (open center) because it does not immediately apply power to front and back. The Model 3 needs a virtual "4-LO" mode IMHO (immediate power to front and back). AWD, might do that if you "launch" it out of the snow. But when you crawl, it feels like it doesn't. It's by no means bad at all. That Model X vs Hummer video looked like the X was effectively in "4-LO" (i.e. there was tension equally on all 4 wheels at very low power). Maybe Model 3 already does what X did in that video. But comments by others, my butt and lack of videos showing it currently tells me otherwise. And it could certainly be adjusted in software.

BTW some Jeeps GC's have a rear Center Diff lock as well. Only available on V8's (mine is a "economic" V6 lol). There is a surprising large difference in capability with the rear center lock (on serious off road adventures, e.g. 2 wheels stuck in the air ).

Yes the Tesla did very well in the “test”. What I was commenting more on was Stealth mentioning in the beginning of the video how the hummer got stuck (and had to be pulled out) and the Tesla didn’t so the Tesla was superior and hummer driver went home crying. But the Tesla didn’t drive in the same deep snow area where the hummer got stuck. Also I’m not saying hummers are good in the snow, because they aren’t, heavy = bad. But then Stealth again was mentioning that the hummer with studded tires was a huge disadvantage. So I was talking about the fact that the hummer did not have studded winter tires but studded mud tires.

I really need to not reply to that guy because he has no idea what he is talking about when it comes to winter. Living in the banana belt and driving up the mountain is not close to the same is dealing with winter all day every day. I’m not on here talking about AC range loss, highway driving, driving in stop and go, best tires for heavy rain,... why? Because when compared to other areas none of those things really exist here in Alaska.

 

[Incredulocious]

The alternate reality is hustling out the door at 5 AM and driving two gaps 20 mi on both dirt and pavement to get to a highway, as opposed to your romantic vision of the rally driver (music swelling in the background), slashing a loose rear end around the tundra. It was a better experience in an S6, A6, two A4s, Honda Pilot, 2 CRVs and a passat 4Mo Sport. Those all feel planted at all times. It is annoying to have that butt go loose on you when the desired behavior is steady as she goes. When you live in snow as opposed to visit it, and have a family of 5 drivers of varying abilities, you want it to just work. That is reality.

I'd like to encourage folks to send your feedback to Tesla (as I have) to see if we can get a change in the Model 3's handling. It's fine if they want to leave this "spirited" rally-driving mode to those who want it, but let's see if we can get a planted, boring, safe winter driving mode (by default or otherwise).

I've also forwarded a link to this discussion thread (though I hope they don't lose interest when they reach the Hummer vs. Model X argument/clutter in the thread).

 

[Electric700]

This is exactly my experience. We probably have not driven in all of each other’s conditions experienced. But the AWD has felt very confident in the conditions I’ve driven so far.

I do keep my car in Chill year round. I also leave it in standard regen year round as well.

I think it’s partly not realizing how much instant torque you have available which can break lose easier than a Subaru slug that eases out the power even if you floor it. Even in chill mode it’s still quick torque to the wheels.

Standard regen might help then (the OP was using low regen instead)?

 

[mswlogo]

Standard regen might help then (the OP was using low regen instead)?

One should have less issues with low regen than Standard Regen. So often, when it's that slippery, I'm usually limited regen anyway.

 

[Castlerock]

Its not the Regen, it is when applying power. It is a distinct, rear of the car slip. If there is any yaw force when it happens you'll feel the car move, then it comes back as the electronics kick it. But it shouldn't happen.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

This should be obvious to you and it's not clear to me why you believe otherwise.

Well, you guys are driving cars with completely different software (you have a P3D and he has an AWD), so there's that! There's no way that the torque distribution is going to be identical between these vehicles. How much it will differ, I do not know. If anyone has driven an AWD & P3D back to back in identical conditions with identical tires, that would be good to hear about. I suspect they will both suffer from the same issue (so will be generally more rear biased - I'd actually expect the P3D to be even more rear biased...but who knows), but perhaps they won't behave identically.

 

[Incredulocious]

Well, you guys are driving cars with completely different software (you have a P3D and he has an AWD), so there's that! There's no way that the torque distribution is going to be identical between these vehicles. How much it will differ, I do not know. If anyone has driven an AWD & P3D back to back in identical conditions with identical tires, that would be good to hear about. I suspect they will both suffer from the same issue (so will be generally more rear biased - I'd actually expect the P3D to be even more rear biased...but who knows), but perhaps they won't behave identically.

Well, I have a P3D and I’ve chimed in about a few unexpected rear kick outs with no change in throttle on a couple of slippery spots. I also had a 1/4 mile section along Lake Tahoe last Saturday night where I and another car were slipping left and right trying to just follow the road at 10 mph. (There had been several accidents earlier that evening at that spot that had closed the road for hours.)

But then I had an impressive push through a foot of unplowed snow for a mile or so to get to the house near Brockway Summit. Luckily a couple of high clearance vehicles had come through earlier and the snow was fairly light and dry that night, so we were able to make it to the driveway unassisted (and relieved!).

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Well, I have a P3D and I’ve chimed in about a few unexpected rear kick outs with no change in throttle on a couple of slippery spots. I also had a 1/4 mile section along Lake Tahoe last Saturday night where I and another car were slipping left and right trying to just follow the road at 10 mph. (There had been several accidents earlier that evening at that spot that had closed the road for hours.)

But then I had an impressive push through a foot of unplowed snow for a mile or so to get to the house near Brockway Summit. Luckily a couple of high clearance vehicles had come through earlier and the snow was fairly light and dry that night, so we were able to make it to the driveway unassisted (and relieved!).

Cool. Sounds roughly the same as the AWD.

That is an enormous cat, and I also wonder how your aero shields (under the car) are doing.

 

[Daniel in SD]

The engineers who designed/programmed the Model 3 traction and stability controls would be smirking at you if they were reading that right now. Because in an AWD Model 3, all torque is not applied to the rear wheels until they slip. That much is obvious to me simply from driving it on bare pavement, let alone slippery surfaces. While it is rear biased by design, the front motor/wheels kick-in from the beginning, even at very low throttle settings when the rear wheels are not slipping. This should be obvious to you and it's not clear to me why you believe otherwise.

It sure didn't feel like that to me. My last car, a Subaru Legacy, had ZERO nannies or electronic assists and drove fine in the snow. You can have plenty of fun with a 50/50 torque distribution. I think people in this thread are just asking for a mode that defaults to 50/50 torque distribution. Then Tesla can also include a mode to turn off all nannies (like most of its competitors have!) for people who want to have fun

 

[Incredulocious]

That is an enormous cat, and I also wonder how your aero shields (under the car) are doing.

And yeah, I thought about the aero shields too but nothing looks amiss yet, front or back.

 

[StealthP3D]

It sure didn't feel like that to me. My last car, a Subaru Legacy, had ZERO nannies or electronic assists and drove fine in the snow. You can have plenty of fun with a 50/50 torque distribution. I think people in this thread are just asking for a mode that defaults to 50/50 torque distribution.

That's fine, people are free to have different preferences and it's OK to lobby Tesla for your preferred implentation. I was simply pointing out that the Model 3 has rear biased AWD, not zero torque to the front until the back slips. That holds true for both the AWD and the P3D.

I'm in the camp that prefers rear biased AWD because it provides more control when cornering and I do a lot of cornering in the snow and ice. I see a lot of people off the road due to corners. I'm surprised at how some people rave about Volvo AWD snow handling. I find it lacking in capability and, frankly, not very engaging. Like a dead fish.

Volvo is apparently very threatened by what Tesla has been dishing out because now their special performance/electric division, Polestar, has developed an upgrade to AWD Volvo's that increases rear wheel bias for more control and performance:

Volvo Polestar Optimization improvements | The Car Magazine

Read it and weep! Yes, it costs extra to get rear wheel bias AWD on a Volvo!

Then Tesla can also include a mode to turn off all nannies (like most of its competitors have!) for people who want to have fun

Track mode is for people who want to have fun. But it goes beyond turning off the electronic driver aids, it tunes them for performance driving. There is no way a car with driver aids turned off can do the same things a Model 3 in track mode can do regardless of the skill of the driver.

IMO, the current AWD Model 3 is already totally fun to drive as review after review has confirmed. That would not have been the case if they released a car that drove like a Volvo. Volvo was once an automotive leader, now they are stuck playing catch-up to Tesla. Of course you have to pay extra for this and schedule a service appointment.

 

[StealthP3D]

I've also forwarded a link to this discussion thread (though I hope they don't lose interest when they reach the Hummer vs. Model X argument/clutter in the thread).

They will probably loose interest when they see the people lobbying for changes simply don't know what they are talking about.

We have people claiming the outside front wheel should be braked in a corner to help it hug the corner (exactly the wrong thing to do if you know about yaw forces and cornering), people who claim no torque gets transmitted to the front wheels until it detects the rear wheels slipping, and people who think Tesla should emulate the center differential lock of an ICE vehicle without realizing that is inferior mechanical solution that has no place in a dual motor electric vehicle because it's inherently inferior to independent electronic power control to the front/back. A center diff lock cannot accomodate the differences in wheel speed as a vehicle goes around corners and is a disaster on ice. Independent wheel control is where it's at and in the future all the most capable AWD EV's will have one motor per wheel to facilitate independent control without resorting to single brake trickery.

I doubt any Tesla engineers would make it past the third page, they would just shake their heads and move on to productive tasks. Tesla goes to all this trouble to tune the car so it drives how enthusiasts want it to drive, car editors love the way it drives, even sceptics like Munro praise the driving dynamics, the car sells like hot cakes for big premiums and brings the company to profitability for two consecutive quarters, Volvo offers a rear-bias AWD upgrade so they are not left behind and then a few people on a Tesla Internet forum complain that the AWD Model 3 is too "scary" to drive, especially on a tight and narrow road. Now they want it to drive like a Volvo, a car whose sales are being demolished by Teslas.

 

[blef44]

Another Vermonter here that has had multiple vehicles with varying AWD systems, Torsen, Haldex, and Honda, all with Snows from Hakka, Michelin, Bridgestone. The dual motor 3 is the least confidence inspiring of all as it stands today. Feeling the rear end slip is NOT a desirable trait. Yes I love the car, but it doesn't make me blind to an obvious deficiency in performance. The emperor is naked AF. Yes we need a snow mode at a minimum. Was thrilled to see the original post by @sir_log_alot.

Agree 100%. I have owned many vehicles in the Colorado mountains from FWD, AWD, 4WD part time, 4WD full time, and RWD and the Model 3 is the least desirable of any of them. Yes, we have snow tires. Yes, I know how to deal with oversteer - I do multiple track events and autocross events yearly with RWD BMW M cars. The way it is 'tuned' really just feels amateurish. There is no reason for it to have that much rear end slip upon very light throttle application even in chill mode. Even the four RWD BMWs I have owned instilled higher confidence in the snow. Sure, the dual motor is unlikely to actually get stuck which I appreciate, but the driving dynamics are certainly not desirable. I would love a snow mode and I am excited to own a car that actually has the capability to add this feature over the air - now we just need it to happen!

 

[StealthP3D]

When you live in snow as opposed to visit it, and have a family of 5 drivers of varying abilities, you want it to just work. That is reality.

I really need to not reply to that guy because he has no idea what he is talking about when it comes to winter. Living in the banana belt and driving up the mountain is not close to the same is dealing with winter all day every day.

I feel like you are trying to dismiss my direct observations of winter snow handling because I live in a "babana belt" (whatever that is) or I don't "live" in the snow? You make it sound like an eskimo who lives in an igloo would have AWD Model 3 winter driving dynamics dialed in!

This is what I woke up to yesterday morning:

I cleared the snow off and went skiing (videos I posted yesterday on this thread), came home, went to bed and woke up to this:

This is no "banana belt", we get everything here, even in the lowlands. I live under 1000' ASL. You can dimiss me based on where I live (which makes no sense at all) or you can bring actual facts to the table to support you beliefs. But your beliefs are not more valuable because you live in Alaska (and have a wife who drives a Model 3) or because you live in VT and have 7 months of winter. I'm only driving in winter conditions 5 or 6 months but it's plenty enough to know what works and what doesn't in the wide variety of winter conditions, steep, narrow, twisty roads, high speed freeways, etc.

A couple of recent dashcam videos from sea-level (simply because I don't pull out my camera all the time to document my daily life):

And the next video was taken the next day (so, yes, there was a solid layer of ice under all that pretty white snow):

And I want to be clear, I'm not posting these photos and videos to say the driving is so extra treacherous, I recognize that treacherous conditions do develop anywhere and it's the time you're not ready for it that it's going to bite you. And a friendly reminder that I'm not the one claiming the car is "scary" in snow and ice. Maybe if I moved to AK or VT I would come to reality and realize how poorly it works!

ColeAK, now you've got me curious, how many actual miles have you driven in the Model 3 this winter. I ask because I know it's primarily your wifes car.​

 

[Daniel in SD]

That's fine, people are free to have different preferences and it's OK to lobby Tesla for your preferred implentation. I was simply pointing out that the Model 3 has rear biased AWD, not zero torque to the front until the back slips. That holds true for both the AWD and the P3D.

I'm in the camp that prefers rear biased AWD because it provides more control when cornering and I do a lot of cornering in the snow and ice. I see a lot of people off the road due to corners. I'm surprised at how some people rave about Volvo AWD snow handling. I find it lacking in capability and, frankly, not very engaging. Like a dead fish.

Volvo is apparently very threatened by what Tesla has been dishing out because now their special performance/electric division, Polestar, has developed an upgrade to AWD Volvo's that increases rear wheel bias for more control and performance:

Volvo Polestar Optimization improvements | The Car Magazine

Read it and weep! Yes, it costs extra to get rear wheel bias AWD on a Volvo!



Track mode is for people who want to have fun. But it goes beyond turning off the electronic driver aids, it tunes them for performance driving. There is no way a car with driver aids turned off can do the same things a Model 3 in track mode can do regardless of the skill of the driver.

IMO, the current AWD Model 3 is already totally fun to drive as review after review has confirmed. That would not have been the case if they released a car that drove like a Volvo. Volvo was once an automotive leader, now they are stuck playing catch-up to Tesla. Of course you have to pay extra for this and schedule a service appointment.

Rear biased AWD is great when you have traction. In fact if you look at lap times there is very little benefit to AWD on dry pavement. The reason for this is because you get weight transfer to the rear under acceleration. However in slippery conditions you get almost no weight transfer so for optimal acceleration you want equal torque to all the wheels.

 

[StealthP3D]

There is no reason for it to have that much rear end slip upon very light throttle application even in chill mode.

I've experimented with "Chill Mode" and it doesn't impact the engagement of the electronic nannies at all. The DSTC is activated based on slipping. All "Chill Mode" does is change the throttle mapping to more resemble an ICE vehicle. What does prevent the rear end slippage is to feather the throttle more. Chill Mode might assist with that but I prefer a consistent throttle response so I always leave it on "Standard" (when not experimenting with Chill).

With a consistent throttle response you will learn how to feather the throttle so the little engineer in the engine room doesn't think you want to play. It sounds like you just want to be able to push the throttle down half-way and have the nanny babysit your throttle. You might need to buy a Volvo to get that.

Make sure you don't get the Polestar rear bias AWD upgrade installed or you will not be happy with the nanny!

 

[PremiumPackage]

Hey Stealth it's not on you to defend the M3's honor. A lot of people have noticed issues with winter handling, and although I don't certainly don't know the exact fix, I bet there is one. I shelled out an extra $4K for AWD and I thought it would be better. To be clear it's not, on an absolute basis, bad, but I think it could (and hopefully will) be better.

 

[Castlerock]

All I'm saying is when I drive my Dual motor 3 with my snow tires, the rear end has an unsettling habit of letting go, seemingly randomly, in a way that no other car, including RWD sports cars have. I cannot believe that you would experience the same phenomena, and consider it a benefit. I do understand all the physics of rear biased driving dynamics, but that isn't what this feels like. In fact before I found this thread, I was wondering If I had a hardware problem with my car.