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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
How do you propose to connect that 3-phase source to the car's on-board charger without a special socket? None of the J1772 cars can support a 3-phase connection. J1772 makes up pretty much all of the EVs and plug-ins that will be sold in the US, except for the Model S, which will support it with an adapter. Neither can the Model S socket (nor the Roadster socket) for that matter.
And I almost forgot that many of the DC chargers will likely be directly wired to the input (no socket at all), like the level-2 chargers currently are. And to make it clear, unlike the DC charging situation, J1772 is definitely already "defacto" for level-2 charging here in North America (and in Japan too). I just don't see 3-phase happening in the US anytime soon (and there is no indication anyone is even attempting to move in that direction).
I'm not going to go into this discussion that much, but the facts are simple:
USA: 1-phase high amps (100A?)
EU: 3-phase medium amps per phase (32A)
At the end of the day it both sums up to somewhere around 20kW.
Don't try to move the world here. Yes, the US power-grid is a 3-phase grid, but the end distribution is NOT done like in the EU, they balance phases by connecting blocks or houses to different phases. We can debate over and over if that's a good or bad thing. But be realistic, it won't change over night and certainly not in the coming 5 years (I'd even say 10, if it changes at all).
So Tesla made a good move, it took some nagging and bugging them, but in the US people can charge with 20kW AC and in the EU we can do the same, isn't that great?
3-phase power in the US is only available on request and will probably be very expensive to install?
I really don't get the point of this whole discussion.
USA: 1-phase high amps (100A?)
EU: 3-phase medium amps per phase (32A)
At the end of the day it both sums up to somewhere around 20kW.
Don't try to move the world here. Yes, the US power-grid is a 3-phase grid, but the end distribution is NOT done like in the EU, they balance phases by connecting blocks or houses to different phases. We can debate over and over if that's a good or bad thing. But be realistic, it won't change over night and certainly not in the coming 5 years (I'd even say 10, if it changes at all).
So Tesla made a good move, it took some nagging and bugging them, but in the US people can charge with 20kW AC and in the EU we can do the same, isn't that great?
3-phase power in the US is only available on request and will probably be very expensive to install?
I really don't get the point of this whole discussion.
OK, in order to give this thread some new stuff to fret about, I have two questions:
1) For 3 phase mobile charging, what changes must be done to the Model S UMC? CEE plug and redesigned vehicle plug? new integrated EVSE?
2) Will there be a HPC 2.0 (or call it 2.5) for EU residential installation that feeds from a 3 phase grid connection? What vehicle plug will it come with?
1) For 3 phase mobile charging, what changes must be done to the Model S UMC? CEE plug and redesigned vehicle plug? new integrated EVSE?
2) Will there be a HPC 2.0 (or call it 2.5) for EU residential installation that feeds from a 3 phase grid connection? What vehicle plug will it come with?
Model S Design Studio at Menlo Park
Is this 3 phases and one earth?
If yes, adapting it with a european 3 phase plug is going to be easy!
Is this 3 phases and one earth?
If yes, adapting it with a european 3 phase plug is going to be easy!
Instead of more fretting, I'd be happier if this thread just got quiet until there was some actual new information. Clearly all that stuff will have to be changed to support 3-phase, particularly the vehicle plug. Right now Tesla has to focus on a successful North American launch and I suspect they be running down to the wire just to reach that.
Not quite that simple. CHAdeMO requires 3-phase, just like the Chameleon charger. The Chameleon charger converts all DC chargers that are not significantly more powerful than 43 kW into expensive do-nothing devices.
Absolutely!
Large buildings in the US also have 3-phase. Every CHAdeMO charger requires a 3-phase connection. If three phase was not widely available in the US, no-one would even be thinking of CHAdeMO there.
At Model S voltage levels, a CHAdeMO charger will be 25-30% more powerful than a 43kW AC charger. So a 30 minute charge on CHAdeMO turns into a nearly 40 minute charge on 43kW AC. Not a huge difference, but definately worth something to me.
Of course, I'd love a network of 90kW Superchargers around the country. About 50 should do for a start
Not really. Our 120 volt circuits are split phase so this is just an approach to find two opposite 120 volt halves and combining them into a single phase 240 volt supply.
No. But last fall I went to an EV event where a guy was selling a device he made that hooked up to a Prius's battery and produced 120V up to 20A. To show off, he wanted to charge my Roadster with it. I didn't think it would work, but agreed to try it. Sure enough, I charged for quite a while at 16A 120v no problem! The whole thing was about the size of a desktop computer, and weighed about the same. I drove home wondering what would be required to get 32A output and simply rectify 3 phases to supply the input. Wouldn't be surprised if it would fit in the Roadster trunk.
ElectricVehicle
Member
The Renault Zoe will have the 43kW AC 3 phase charging with the charger on board the vehicle. When you say "All the forthcoming Nissan chargers will have 43kW 3 phase as well." What is your source? On which vehicles?
Tesla, which has the least expensive prices for on board chargers, charges $1500 for another 10 kW of charging power. Scaling that up to an on board 43 kW charger would be roughly 4 x 10 kW units at $1500 each for a total of $6,000. In the context of the Nissan LEAF, I doubt they are going to add $6,000 or maybe they do it a bit cheaper - $4,000 to each LEAF for 43 kw charging! $4,000 for 43 kW of power is a little under $0.10/watt, and that's a very, very, possibly too low cost for power electronics. For comparison, one of the cheapest CHAdeMO quick chargers is the Nissan QC, about to come out, that is $10,000 for 50 kW.
So I believe SELECT, high end or special application cars will have 43 kW AC charging, but not entry level and mainstream EVs. Though I also think every EV should have at least a 10kW onboard charger ($1500 included) and an option to go up to at least 20kW ($1500 option) just like the Model S!
I've heard similar off the record comments at various Nissan and Renault events that I've attended. Renault have said that the Fluence and Kangoo were designed for specific customers and as they move towards mass market vehicles they are free to implement more useful fast charging (which IMO is 43kW 3 Phase in Europe today).
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