Future Charging for Model S 1-phase or 3-phase ?

[Yggdrasill]

12kg? that's the weight of the 22kW Brusa Charger, less then one of Teslas onbord charger which are 15kg each.

DC charging makes only sense with high power like 90kW quick charging, but then it would be better to draw the power form the medium voltage of 10kV or 20kV system via a AC - DC Converter down to 500V DV, saving the need and avoiding the loss (3-5%) of a transformer.
This may work for future quick charging stations on highways to replace the current gas station.

Assuming a weight of 20 kg, that's about 50 Watts to keep it going at 55 mph. That reduces the range of the 85 kWh battery by about 1 mile, and will cost around 200 kWh over 300k km.

That's not as bad as I would have thought, actually. It may be that the AC charger is worth dragging along in the long term.

 

[Eberhard]

Assuming a weight of 20 kg, that's about 50 Watts to keep it going at 55 mph. That reduces the range of the 85 kWh battery by about 1 mile, and will cost around 200 kWh over 300k km.

That's not as bad as I would have thought, actually. It may be that the AC charger is worth dragging along in the long term.

wrong calculation. because the 3-phase 22kW charger weights less then the 30kg twin charger, you will even gain range.

 

[dsm363]

This thread is so long now but what exactly did Tesla say they'll deliver with 3 phase charging and is it what you were hoping for?

 

[Eberhard]

the info was published via twitter. i think, tesla managed to add a third charger not a new development.

 

[Yggdrasill]

wrong calculation. because the 3-phase 22kW charger weights less then the 30kg twin charger, you will even gain range.

I would think it's more likely that Tesla stuffs in another 15 kg charger, meaning you have to drag around 30 kg extra on top of the single charger, and leading to a range reduction of around 1.5 miles.

But I was thinking in more general terms - whether it would be very beneficial to get rid of a 20 kg AC charger and use DC charging exclusively. It's apparently not very beneficial.

 

[Eberhard]

if DC would be available everywhere - no problem. Then we could also talk about inductive charging. It will take a few years. But AC 3-phase is already there, several hundreds of 16A 3-phase with 11kW or higher are installed by Park&charge in Switzerland, Austria and Germany.

 

[GeorgeB]

Hello from Amsterdam... I had a great few days at the Geneva Motor Show, then on to the Netherlands for a few meetings.

Just a quick note to say thanks to Widodh for the package he put together. It was nicely presented.

I know Model S 3-phase charging has been an important issue to many of you, and I'm very happy that Elon made it official on Tuesday. I have no further details to share at this point on the subject. We will give more details when they are finalized.

Thanks Widodh.

Have a great weekend! GeorgeB

 

[dpeilow]

Yes big thanks to Wido and the many others who worked behing the scenes to make this happen - you know who you are ;-)

 

[widodh]

Hello from Amsterdam... I had a great few days at the Geneva Motor Show, then on to the Netherlands for a few meetings.

Just a quick note to say thanks to Widodh for the package he put together. It was nicely presented.

I know Model S 3-phase charging has been an important issue to many of you, and I'm very happy that Elon made it official on Tuesday. I have no further details to share at this point on the subject. We will give more details when they are finalized.

Thanks Widodh.

Have a great weekend! GeorgeB

Thanks!

Great to hear this from you! No thank you is needed, it was no problem at all to make the package, I'm just really happy with this announcement! I also don't think I was the only one sending letters to Tesla

We'll wait for the further details, I think now that the word has come out people will calm down around this.

In my mailbox I have two e-mails of people who e-mailed me telling me they made a reservation after the announcement was made. It was a real dealbreaker for people. But that's history now!

 

[dsm363]

Widodh 2012!
Nice work. Also great to know Tesla listens when there is sufficient demand and a strong argument for a feature such as three phase charging.

 

[eledille]

Assuming a weight of 20 kg, that's about 50 Watts to keep it going at 55 mph. That reduces the range of the 85 kWh battery by about 1 mile, and will cost around 200 kWh over 300k km.

That's not as bad as I would have thought, actually. It may be that the AC charger is worth dragging along in the long term.

Check out what Renault is doing with the Zoe charger. They actually did exactly what I've been arguing should be done for years, they have integrated the charger into the motor controller to reduce cost and weight. Zoe has an extremely attractive price and an extremely powerful AC charger. That would be very difficult to achieve without such integration. Shared cooling systems alone would reduce both weight and cost by quite a bit.

I don't think there is any weight penalty at all, remember that you can drop the single phase charger that would otherwise be required.

 

[hcsharp]

Check out what Renault is doing with the Zoe charger. They actually did exactly what I've been arguing should be done for years, they have integrated the charger into the motor controller to reduce cost and weight. Zoe has an extremely attractive price and an extremely powerful AC charger. That would be very difficult to achieve without such integration. Shared cooling systems alone would reduce both weight and cost by quite a bit.

I don't think there is any weight penalty at all, remember that you can drop the single phase charger that would otherwise be required.

It's debatable whether integrating the two is more efficient and cheaper, or better. Both systems have different requirements for cooling. Both systems are handling different ranges of voltage levels and power. Separating the two systems allows you to optimize each for it's own highest efficiency instead of compromising to allow multiple purposes from the same components. The maintenance is probably also cheaper. If a charger breaks it will be much easier to replace than a more expensive integrated unit. Of course Renault's approach has benefits as well. I'm not convinced it's as simple as it looks.

 

[Eberhard]

It's debatable whether integrating the two is more efficient and cheaper, or better. Both systems have different requirements for cooling. Both systems are handling different ranges of voltage levels and power. Separating the two systems allows you to optimize each for it's own highest efficiency instead of compromising to allow multiple purposes from the same components. The maintenance is probably also cheaper. If a charger breaks it will be much easier to replace than a more expensive integrated unit. Of course Renault's approach has benefits as well. I'm not convinced it's as simple as it looks.

I agree, if you have the inverter attached direct to the windings of the ac-motor, you have no space for a contactor or one, thats can do 1200A with nearly no contact resistance.

 

[eledille]

hcsharp, Eberhard: The fact that Renault can offer Zoe for GBP 18000 including integrated 43 kW charger proves that this can be done.

Cooling requirements would be essentially the same, both contain the same type of electronics and will require the same operating temperature, so they can be connected to the same coolant loop. I don't think there would be any efficiency loss, regen and charging happens at comparable voltages, frequencies and power. If there is any efficiency loss, then that must be balanced against cost - we could have extremely efficient electric drives if we used superconductors, but it's too expensive.

 

[Eberhard]

hcsharp, Eberhard: The fact that Renault can offer Zoe for GBP 18000 including integrated 43 kW charger proves that this can be done.

Cooling requirements would be essentially the same, both contain the same type of electronics and will require the same operating temperature, so they can be connected to the same coolant loop. I don't think there would be any efficiency loss, regen and charging happens at comparable voltages, frequencies and power. If there is any efficiency loss, then that must be balanced against cost - we could have extremely efficient electric drives if we used superconductors, but it's too expensive.

The ZOE has a detached Ac-Motor/Inverter combination. The power is with 65kW relative low. This cannot be done with Model S attached motor/inverter of 300kW and 1200A

 

[Norbert]

hcsharp, Eberhard: The fact that Renault can offer Zoe for GBP 18000 including integrated 43 kW charger proves that this can be done.

We don't know if the Zoe is sold with profit (and if so, with how much profit). Last I heard about the Nissan Leaf it appeared to be sold below cost. (As for the Volt.)

 

[dpeilow]

They're planning to sell 150000 a year. I doubt they're doing it for charity...

 

[Yggdrasill]

They might just be carving out a niche for themselves for the future. Toyota sold the first generation Prius at a loss to develop the hybrid market for themselves. That was about 2-300 000 cars. They've been profiting on their investment for a decade now.

 

[stopcrazypp]

hcsharp, Eberhard: The fact that Renault can offer Zoe for GBP 18000 including integrated 43 kW charger proves that this can be done.

That's with battery lease and a huge volume target (so any development/parts costs are more easily amortized).

Assuming this is still talking about the applicability to the Model S, I doubt the cost will be the same for Tesla to do the same approach. Based on the fact that there is little to no demand for 3-phase in the US, I doubt Tesla will go for an integrated solution. The modular solution lets them easily provide both upgradable chargers AND 3-phase support for the markets that want it.

 

[eledille]

The ZOE has a detached Ac-Motor/Inverter combination. The power is with 65kW relative low. This cannot be done with Model S attached motor/inverter of 300kW and 1200A

Please tell me why.

The Model S motor and inverter are separate components, they are just mounted close together. There is no reason why a contactor could not be added, a 1200 A, 500-ish volt contactor is a fairly low-power component after all. This is a big contactor :biggrin: (failing to immediately break one of the phases). The contactor required in this application is particularly simple because it does not have to break any current. The motor is obviously not getting any power when you're about to charge the battery, so the contactor only has to conduct and isolate well, there will be no arcing to worry about. I'm not even sure contactor is the right word for it. The motor is not involved in charging at all.

I like the way they have mounted the motor and inverter in Model S, but if there is not enough room for an integrated charger/inverter then they will have to find a way to make room. As I've said many times, I don't see why a charger/inverter would take up much more space than a plain inverter anyway, the whole point is that one is almost a superset of the other.

I'm not arguing that they should change the first generation Model S to do this. I'm saying that they need to start working on this now. Renault has a lead of a couple of years here and Tesla didn't even think seriously about three phase until a few months ago. This is clearly the future, Renault has demonstrated that they can do it at high power in an extremely attractively priced EV, and if Tesla can't do it too then they're in trouble.