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GSP: My pleasure. Digressing a bit here, but see this one too. The arcing is due to the helicopter acting as a capacitor. Electricity is awesome stuff 
@eledille: this sounds like a great item to put on the "to do" list for Tesla's EEs. I'd be very surprised if we see it on the EU Model Ss, because of timing, but it would be a very cost-efficient way to handle 3-phase charging in later iterations.
Something else to keep in mind -- the Model S already has contactors to allow for dual-mode charging (either AC or DC) on the same charge port conductors.
(somewhat off-topic) I would be interested to see the wire paths in the Model S between the charge port, one or more chargers under the rear seats, and the battery pack. Where do these DC-fast-charge contactors reside? Are contactors also necessary on the input side of the AC chargers? How are the dual chargers "wired up" to the charge port and battery pack? etc...
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
In terms of the "integrated" charger. I think Tesla has used this before in the Roadster. I assume we are talking about the charger in page 18 of this presentation:
http://vppc2010.univ-lille1.fr/uploads/PDF/VPPC-10-Pres-Keynote-Perrin.pdf
The Renault charger sounds exactly same as the "reductive" charger technology from AC Propulsion described below, which Tesla used to license and use, but ditched later on for a separate charger (because the separate charger was actually cheaper, supposedly).
Therefore I think even Nissan/Renault will have to license from ACP if they decide to use the same system in the US.
And anyways, it looks like the Max single phase power is 3kW for the Renault, which is pretty much the slowest you can get in the US for level 2 charging. Tesla is offering 10kW and 20kW right now, so that charger will have to be beefed up.
http://vppc2010.univ-lille1.fr/uploads/PDF/VPPC-10-Pres-Keynote-Perrin.pdf
The Renault charger sounds exactly same as the "reductive" charger technology from AC Propulsion described below, which Tesla used to license and use, but ditched later on for a separate charger (because the separate charger was actually cheaper, supposedly).
http://www.acpropulsion.com/products-reductive.html
Therefore I think even Nissan/Renault will have to license from ACP if they decide to use the same system in the US.
And anyways, it looks like the Max single phase power is 3kW for the Renault, which is pretty much the slowest you can get in the US for level 2 charging. Tesla is offering 10kW and 20kW right now, so that charger will have to be beefed up.
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Yes, I should have written "as soon as possible" instead of "now". I have no illusions that this will be ready for the launch.
Yes, and another one by RWE that shows the same components arranged somewhat differently. I don't understand that diagram, the motor's neutral seems to be connected to the junction box, but the three phase input is going nowhere. I think the RWE diagram had the junction box positioned between 3-p supply, motor and inverter.
Yes and no. AC Propulsion's "reductive charger" uses the motor windings for smoothing the output of a single phase rectifier (ok, ok, inverter) and operates on single phase. Both reuse motor drive IGBTs. The idea is the same, but the reductive charger has a more difficult and somewhat different job because of the single phase input.
Quite possible, I don't know. If ACP's patents are about motor windings, single phase and smoothing, maybe not. If they managed to patent the reuse of motor drive IGBTs for charging, then probably. On the other hand, Renault supposedly has 60 patents on its charger.
It doesn't say that max single phase power is 3 kW, that is only one endpoint of a range. It might be that it supports for instance 32 A single, but probably not 63 A. But I thought you guys were uninterested in three phase - I imagined this would be for Europe and Tesla would install the current chargers for NA.
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agreed... I was told at the Geneva show by Renault that it was a "minimum of 32A and possibly 63A"
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Here's the supported charging modes in the ZOE described in another site:
http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/electric-cars/renault-zoe-with-Plug-in-electric-car-grant.htm
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I'm just commenting on the likelihood of it. I certainly know the European market will likely have a different charger (it's going to be the same way for J1772 vs Mennekes), but I see the modular approach more likely (given Tesla has ditched the integrated approach once before and it's easier to swap out a modular charger). The integrated approach will mean licensing issues for Tesla which might end up costing more money anyways (if Renault has patents, which I assume is in Europe, that means Tesla will have to pay both ACP in the US and Renault in Europe).
No, it says those are charge times, not supported charge modes. Given that it says 'any power level', those could just be examples.
you have to include the fact, that all of the DC charger with 50kW or quick charger with 90kW will be feed from the 277V/480V 3-phase grid. That would enable any electric car to charger with 22kW or 43kW from the AC-3phase grid as well without the need of an expensive external DC-charger.
My comment about American disinterest in three phase was a bit tongue-in-cheek. Sorry. To me, three phase is obviously desirable in NA too, and personally I'm sure that will become more and more evident. The lack of plug and standards support is a challenge, of course.
If the integrated charger supports everything then there is no need to swap it unless it breaks. Breakage is more likely to happen with two components than one. From my own experience, it seems that water intrusion and condensation is the most common cause of electronic component failure in EVs.
The list of charge times are just examples. It will obviously support 16 A, 400 V, this will be the most common circuit size for home charging in three-phase-land. That is not listed, but not supporting it would be completely lunatic. I'm quite sure it will support all the amperages that the standard can communicate between EVSE and vehicle, probably well below 16 A and up to the maximum (63 A).
Single phase maximum is not listed, but I would assume that it can handle 32 A, as it can do 63 A three phase. Kevin wrote that Renault had said 32 A, possibly 63 A, and that makes sense. Supporting 63 A single phase will probably mean higher parts cost, though.
If the alternative is USD 3000 for two extra chargers to get three phase (number off the top of my head, may be wrong), and then at only half the power of a small, inexpensive car, then perhaps they should consider licensing. But patents can often be worked around, you just have to find a sufficiently different way to do the same thing. Maybe that is possible, maybe not. Tesla needs to develop its own IP in this field as soon as possible, if at all possible.
This is really, really important. It enables powerful, inexpensive charging anywhere in Europe and (ignoring incompatible plugs and standards) many places in NA for those that have the technology and the patents. Those that don't will have to pay for access to it or their cars will have to haul more heavy, expensive gear around.
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
None of the three-phase sockets you guys are talking about are readily accessible to the public. Plus when you are drawing at that rate, the owners of that socket will likely want to charge you for it (esp. given there are little to no 3-phase sockets used in residential settings). And given J1772 has no support for 3-phase whatsoever, unlike the Mennekes connector standard Europe will use, there would be no existing level 2 stations (which have the payment system built in) that would support 3 phase charging. 3-phase will have virtually NO role in the US for that reason. That's why there's not even one automaker planning to offer 3-phase in the US (even the European ones, like BMW with the Active-E). Therefore, Tesla has absolutely no incentive to support 3-phase in the US. Any built in 3-phase support will just cost them extra money in the US and will not play any significant role in helping sales in the US.
Again, I'm not sure if you missed my other comment, but the car you are pointing out not only doesn't include the cost of the battery, it also will be made in about 10x as much volume as the Model S. Plus Renault doesn't have to pay any licensing fees presumably (like Tesla did before). It's just not going to cost the same for Tesla to make it. And keep in mind my point above about the significance of 3-phase in the US.
I think you don't want to understand what i want to make understandable. If there are several EV are to be charged in one street in the neighborhood , the grid need to be updated to handle the high load. Best way do to it is with the introduction of the 3-phase grid. If a CHAdeMO or 90kW quickcharger can be installed, then also a much simpler and more inexpensive (few hundreds instead of ten thousands of dollars) charging station can be installed too. No special socket needed.
Mark Petersen
Model S EU P71
but is still may be interesting, as if you have a 3-phase 32A charger you can use it as a 1-phase 96A, but a 1-phase charger can not be used at 3-phase
it is just like the 2x10Kw charger from tesla uses 1-phase, they use the same phase, but you could technical connect them to 2 different outlet each cable of only 10Kw
the only different will be that 3-phase will be in sync and not at a shifted phase
it is just like the 2x10Kw charger from tesla uses 1-phase, they use the same phase, but you could technical connect them to 2 different outlet each cable of only 10Kw
the only different will be that 3-phase will be in sync and not at a shifted phase
Tesla does not pay licence to ACP since Roadster 500, because they used Tesla technology with an isolated charger to accus. ACP reductive charger has grid potential at the accus that is a protection issue. So Tesla should never go back to reductive charger.
Renault Zoe is the first car i know, witch applies 3ph 400V for an integrated charger, 400V x √2 > 560V DC, Batterie Voltage is 400V DC, There must be a DC/DC Converter in between, so it is different to ACP, no license.
Zoe Charger supports definitly 43kW charging.
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