Future Charging for Model S 1-phase or 3-phase ?

[VolkerP]

The kit would no doubt be very large for DC Fast Charge, but a smaller unit could convert 3-phase to DC at a lower current.

Tesla states that basically 10kW is more than enough to charge my Model S from AC.
It makes no sense to lug around a bulky external kit in my trunk just to get that little power into my car at home and on a visit to friends.

I want that built in.

Please make an internal 3phase charger that replaces the U.S. 10kw single phase unit. I know, low numbers, high price...
And for the connector, oh well, the opening is too small to have the 55mm diameter Mennekes plug go in there.

Tesla really screwed up this one.

 

[dpeilow]

How about this : ?

kind of compromise ....

By jove, I think he's done it!

 

[VolkerP]

In the original picture, the two large pins are for 200amps DC or up to 80 amps AC.

If we want high power 3 phase AC charging, the third pin added by EV_de can be reduced in size to serve up to 80 amps. That gives 3x240Vx80A=57kW.
If Tesla limits on board AC charging to 22kW due to space/thermal constraints, the additional pin must supply 32A. Large reduction in size!

I am pretty sure such a "nimble" pin can be added to the plug in the suggested location.

 

[AndrewBissell]

From the beginning I have been wondering about that strange three-pointed slot (and it's counterpart protrusion on the socket). I know it exists to act as a guide - but with a suitable change in materials within each slot and on the three points of the protrusion on the socket it could be a three Live current carrier.


Maybe this was always the (backup?) plan. Maybe it's happenstance. Maybe I'm wrong and it just couldn't work.

Btw it seems this approach is at least passivy safe if not interoperable. A US car exported to Europe plugged into a 3phase Tesla charger would have metal 3 Lives butting plastic guide protrusion. A European Model S sent to the US would still plug in with it's part metal protrusions in the plastic guide slot.

Assuming the Euro car had both a 10kW 1 phase and 22/43 kW 3 phase charger, it would charge whichever kind of station plugged into it.

Equally European Tesla stations would either be DC or single phase (using the main pins) or 3-phase, presumably offer (by negotiation with the car) one phase via the main pins or three-phase via the aux pins (so cars sold in countries without common 3-phase in Europe needn't buy the 3-phase charger).

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Hotels and ski resorts have no need for CHAdeMO chargers

I stopped at the Castle Hotel in Taunton again yesterday and used the HPC. If the hotel had a CHAdeMO charger then I know large numbers of Leaf drivers would use it as well.

Remember that the Hotel has a restaurant and they allow you to charge for free in return for the purchase of a meal or drinks.

I have seen cost estimates for the CHAdeMO stations in Norway, the installations range from €50k to $75k.

I can't comment on costs in Norway. In the UK we are looking at a fraction of those installation costs and it's now cheap enough that Leaf drivers are banding together to purchase the chargers.

 

[markwj]

The model S can have 2x 10kW chargers onboard, and the connector has 2 hot pins, right? Could I be possible/easier to arrange that to pull from 2 of the 3 phases? Better than a single phase, but still unbalanced (which may make it unworkable in some markets).

[ P.S. I have little experience with anything above 5V, other than being electrocuted several times as a kid, so the above is just a question and is probably completely impractical ]

 

[jkirkebo]

The model S can have 2x 10kW chargers onboard, and the connector has 2 hot pins, right? Could I be possible/easier to arrange that to pull from 2 of the 3 phases? Better than a single phase, but still unbalanced (which may make it unworkable in some markets).

Interesting point. The chargers would have to accept 400V input. This would yield 6.4kW from 16A and 12.8kW from 32A.

 

[widodh]

Interesting point. The chargers would have to accept 400V input. This would yield 6.4kW from 16A and 12.8kW from 32A.

I guess it will not work, since you don't have a neutral pin then anymore, which is also used for the communication with the charging station (EVSE).

in Endorse my letter to Tesla for supporting 3-phase charging for the Model S the idea came up again, a external 3-phase -> DC charger which is used to do 3-phase charging.

That is portable, since you would be hauling it with you, not built into the car, it would be somewhere in the thunk. When charging you would have to get it out, it's a new risk of theft and damage.

What a lot of US people don't seem to understand, as Europeans we are limited to 7kW AC without 3-phase (32A at 230V)! We don't want something like 50kW AC charging, but at least 11kW (3x16A) or 22kW (3x32A) would be a great step. Everything above that can be done with a external DC charger which does the real fast charging.

Thát is the whole point here, we are not able to charge fast enough on AC, while 3-phase AC is widely available throughout Europe, it is everywhere!

 

[jkirkebo]

I guess it will not work, since you don't have a neutral pin then anymore, which is also used for the communication with the charging station (EVSE).

Huh ? How is the Neutral pin (or L1,L2 for that sake) having anything to do with EVSE communication ? I was sure all communication was on designated pins, not over the power delivery pins ?

And how would an EVSE then work on 230V single phase where you often have two hot pins and no neutral ?

 

[TEG]

http://www.sae.org/standardsdev/news/P111164.pdf

...up to 200 amp – 200 to 450 VDC 90kw DC. Communications between the vehicle and off-board charger as well as communication between the vehicle and smart grid will be done by Power Line Carrier (PLC) technology and requires no extra pins in the coupler. The communications technology also enables other customer focused features such a accessing the vehicle infotainment system to download multimedia files or receive diagnostic information from the vehicle...

 

[TEG]

...And how would an EVSE then work on 230V single phase where you often have two hot pins and no neutral?...

They tend to put various voltages (e.g., 120V, 208V or 240V) as just two hots with no neutral over the same two pins.
Now it sounds like Tesla plans to put high voltage DC over the same two pins. The charger behind the socket will need to be flexible to handle all the various power types (all single phase or DC) that may come across those two power pins. I can't be sure if they would also handle PLC on the two power pins, or expect all signaling to happen over the two dedicated signaling pins. Some of the design likely is intended to make it easy to interface to other standards (like the SAE DC combo) if they need to.

 

[hcsharp]

The key information we seem to be missing is what DC charge control capability will be in the Model S to start with. At least some people have suggested it might not be capable of limiting the current after reading the pilot signal. If it is capable then a portable adapter solution should not be too bulky or expensive or heavy to implement. A lot of people would rather not have to use an adapter when traveling. On the other hand, it's a pretty big compromise putting all the hardware in the car when 98% of the time it's not needed there and you will be better off having it in your garage. Perhaps even the American cars should get rid of the AC input so the only thing in the car is the DC charger.

Does anyone know for sure what the capability of the on-board DC charger is?

 

[dpeilow]

We've been discussing that here: What charge port connector?

 

[TEG]

At least some people have suggested it might not be capable of limiting the current after reading the pilot signal...Does anyone know for sure what the capability of the on-board DC charger is?

Basically forget everything you know about how AC charging works when thinking about DC charging.
Generally DC goes straight to the battery pack so the "charger" is now outside of the car.
Some of the circuits in the car's charger may still be in play to monitor battery things like SOC, temp, etc, and communicate those to the "offboard" charger so that it can do the right things in terms of current limiting, and such.

 

[zdre]

My belief has been that making a 3-phase rectifier is not any more expensive in parts than making a 1-phase rectifier of the same power output. I see no reason why Tesla could not make a 3-phase 10kW charging module for the European market and add two smaller pins to the new connector. However, I have no idea how they have actually designed the chargers, so my ideas may not apply.

Electrical engineers... please correct me if I am wrong.
The AC components in a 3-phase rectifiers need to handle only a third of the current of the AC components in a single-phase rectifiers (unless they are made to also handle high-power single-phase). 3-phase also requires only 1.5 times of rectifying components, not 3 times. There is also almost no filtering needed for the DC current since rippling is minimal.

 

[Eberhard]

My belief has been that making a 3-phase rectifier is not any more expensive in parts than making a 1-phase rectifier of the same power output. I see no reason why Tesla could not make a 3-phase 10kW charging module for the European market and add two smaller pins to the new connector. However, I have no idea how they have actually designed the chargers, so my ideas may not apply.

Electrical engineers... please correct me if I am wrong.
The AC components in a 3-phase rectifiers need to handle only a third of the current of the AC components in a single-phase rectifiers (unless they are made to also handle high-power single-phase). 3-phase also requires only 1.5 times of rectifying components, not 3 times. There is also almost no filtering needed for the DC current since rippling is minimal.

you are absolute correct

 

[linaser]

Hi all

I asked the guys at evtec, a small but highly capable company in Switzerland, if they are planing to release their MobileFastCharger (3-Phase AC to DC charger) in a version, which is compatible with Model S.

This is what i got back:

Natürlich haben wir geplant den MobileFastCharger in Zukunft weiterzuentwicklen bzw. in verschiedenen Versionen anzubieten um mit möglichst vielen EV's kompatibel zu sein. Da der Tesla S aber erst in einigen Monaten auf dem Markt erhältlich sein wird, haben wir zurzeit noch keinen Fokus darauf gelegt.

Sollte der Tesla S (wie im Artikel beschrieben) das CHAdeMO-Prtotokoll unterstützen, sollte eine Anpassung voraussichtlich nicht besonders aufwändig sein. Aber wir möchten hier die Marktsituation noch beobachten und keine Versprechungen abgeben bevor wir das genau geprüft haben.

I'll try to translate this for the non german speaking members here:

They say, that they're willing to support all major EV's, but haven't started development yet because Model S won't be available until next year. In the second Part, they say, that they hope, that Tesla will indeed support CHAdeMO (with adapter/converter?), which would make their job a lot easier.

So, in my opinion, there seems at least to be a realistic chance, that we can get a charger, which we can use to charge up our Model S in a acceptable time.

- Sven

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

In the second Part, they say, that they hope, that Tesla will indeed support CHAdeMO (with adapter/converter?), which would make their job a lot easier.

I had a very similar conversation today with a major European DC Charger manufacturer. Again, they are happy to support the Tesla Model S but it will all depend on the number of cars on the road when they come to justify the development costs...

 

[dpeilow]

The problem with EVtec's charger is that it costs €14900. Do you want to leave that loose by the car? Even if you can lock it, there's always the risk of someone might drive over it.

Anyway we mentioned these guys in one of the threads so let's not rake over old ground.

 

[cinergi]

Curious -- are there any applicable and relatively inexpensive phase converters that would allow you to provide ~20kW at ~240 VAC 1 phase from 3 phase (and then us My cursory searches are showing some large and heavy equipment but this stuff's outside my area of expertise -- e.g. Visicomm Industries)