Future proof charger install?

[ai4px]

This has also been rattling around in my brain for a while now. Finding a HPWC Gen 2 on eBay seems like the best option, as it can do up to 80 amps. My charger/outlet is only 4' from the breaker, so redoing wiring isn't hard. I've been rocking a NEMA 14-50 since 2015, when my original Model S could pull 40 amps and be happy all day. (My car could do 80, but 40 always met my needs).

Anyway With the big-bad-ass (200?) kWh battery of the cybertruck, I'm not sure the wimpy 32 amp of my UMCGen2 will cut it.

So, the 'fixed' NEMA 14-50 that can do 40 is nice, and solid price, if not always sold out.

But, Gen 3 HPWC is stuck at 48 amps... and I'm thinking a big ass battery deserves a big ass charger. So.. will Tesla stick with 48A for home charging, or swing for the fences, and then sell a Gen4 or CyberTruck branded HWPC, or even a bidirectional option?

I hate waiting, and have looked for options, but I'm thinking the best thing, for me at least, is sit tight. Get the truck, see if 32 amps meets my needs, and if not, evaluate options at that time. Anything else would be potentially wasting $ and time.

I think the reason for most things being 48amp is that’s fed from a 60 amp breaker. And anything fed from >60amp breaker has to have a local shut off switch. Just another hurdle but it can be done.

My bet is that the CT will come out coincident with a new type of Evse that will self isolate and back feed your house.

 

[brkaus]

My bet is that the CT will come out coincident with a new type of Evse that will self isolate and back feed your house.

Of so, and cost $1000s to install. (This Is How Much The Ford F-150 Lightning Home Integration System Will Cost)

 

[Rocky_H]

But, Gen 3 HPWC is stuck at 48 amps... and I'm thinking a big ass battery deserves a big ass charger. So.. will Tesla stick with 48A for home charging, or swing for the fences, and then sell a Gen4 or CyberTruck branded HWPC, or even a bidirectional option?

Huh. Now that's an angle I hadn't heard before. When people have asked about this before, with just the standard EVSE Tesla wall connector, I have said I am certain that Tesla had made that decision of going down to 48A permanently, and that's over. But I hadn't thought of maybe if they would introduce a different kind of product with the Cybertruck, that maybe it would be something to do V2G and might be higher power. So I guess that's a possibility.

I hate waiting, and have looked for options, but I'm thinking the best thing, for me at least, is sit tight. Get the truck, see if 32 amps meets my needs, and if not, evaluate options at that time. Anything else would be potentially wasting $ and time.

Yeah, there are options, but they're expensive. Clipper Creek does sell 80A J1772 units for use on 100A circuits, but they don't have the nice power sharing functionality.

 

[brkaus]

Huh. Now that's an angle I hadn't heard before. When people have asked about this before, with just the standard EVSE Tesla wall connector, I have said I am certain that Tesla had made that decision of going down to 48A permanently, and that's over. But I hadn't thought of maybe if they would introduce a different kind of product with the Cybertruck, that maybe it would be something to do V2G and might be higher power. So I guess that's a possibility.

I think they will be pushed into it by Ford. But I think the actual uptake will be quite small due to cost & additional parts.

 

[Roy2001]

I have a Ford charge station pro 80A charger, just hope it would work with CT. But apparently it won't.

 

[Rocky_H]

I have a Ford charge station pro 80A charger, just hope it would work with CT. But apparently it won't.

Why would you think that? It almost certainly will. What kind of plug does it have on it? Is it a J1772 plug?

Are you thinking because of the amp level? That can always still work. The charging station has a signal that announces how many amps are available. Then the car sees that and requests how much it wants. So there is always a negotiation there. That's no problem if the station announces it has 80A available, and then the car sees that and says "I only want 48A". There's no force-feeding from the station. It's the car that requests and draws how much it wants. But if a station announces it only has 24A, then the car won't request more than 24A.

 

[NickFie]

I hate waiting, and have looked for options, but I'm thinking the best thing, for me at least, is sit tight. Get the truck, see if 32 amps meets my needs, and if not, evaluate options at that time. Anything else would be potentially wasting $ and time.

I agree-wait until there are solid facts. Our main panel is on the far side of the house from the driveway. That made incremental cost of higher-capacity copper negligible relative to total job cost, or the cost of later upgrade.

Once the electrician reported we could have 100 Amp charging connection, I specified a subpanel near the driveway with 100 Amp connection. The subpanel has a single 100 Amp breaker feeding a nearby Gen 2. With an eye to the future, I had the electrician run shielded twisted 2-pair bus cable to the HPWC, leaving the cable reel in the attic area above the subpanel.

My Tesla “Guru” - an early investor and Model S 85 buyer - stopped by on a road trip. He reported it was his first 80-Amp charge. It allowed him to gain meaningful range during our family dinner.

Once our detached garage was decluttered I bought a second Gen 2 on eBay and had the electrician install it in the garage. He ran 100-Amp and bus cable from there to the subpanel. The breaker and both HPWCs are interconnected on terminal strips in the subpanel.

Now my wife and I don’t have to share.

 

[NickFie]

Why would you think that? It almost certainly will. What kind of plug does it have on it? Is it a J1772 plug?

I agree. We installed a ChargePoint Flex unit at our beach house. Makes life easier for non-Tesla renters and has reliable Wi-Fi control. It wouldn’t be easy to power-cycle a Gen 3 HPWC, then use Bluetooth to coach it when 100s of miles away.

We use the J1772 adapter provided with the Tesla. When I use the iPhone Tesla App to disconnect, I can hear the ChargePoint’s relay click to drop the power just before our car’s charge port changes from green (connected to power) to white (plug unlocked).

 

[dafish]

OP:

We just went through a significant EV project at my son's home. Entire EV subpanel, outlets at lots of locations in several garages, etc.

In several locations we dropped enough cable and breaker to support 100amp circuits. W/Ford already supporting 80 amp on the lightening you have to think that's a likely next industry step. At the same time we terminated w/14-50's so we could use those locations now. Point: Future proofed, which is pretty much what you're asking for.

BTW, we used aluminum cause copper = $$$.

In my home regardless of HC vs MC, I'll install a 60 amp circuit if I do anything more. I've already got 30 amp and it's probably enough.

 

[Roy2001]

Why would you think that? It almost certainly will. What kind of plug does it have on it? Is it a J1772 plug?

Are you thinking because of the amp level? That can always still work. The charging station has a signal that announces how many amps are available. Then the car sees that and requests how much it wants. So there is always a negotiation there. That's no problem if the station announces it has 80A available, and then the car sees that and says "I only want 48A". There's no force-feeding from the station. It's the car that requests and draws how much it wants. But if a station announces it only has 24A, then the car won't request more than 24A.

Ford charge station pro 80A charger only send 40A to level 2 charging porttion, another 40A to the DC portion. So it is not the regular home level 2 J1772 charger. It won't even work with regular J1772 -> Tesla adaptor, lower portion would not allow you to push charger in.

I really think J1772 design is dumb. Tesla charger portal is much much better.

 

[Rocky_H]

Whoa, that's weird. I didn't know it used a CCS1 plug.

Ford charge station pro 80A charger only send 40A to level 2 charging porttion, another 40A to the DC portion.

Well, I'm over 95% sure it doesn't work that way. The CCS1 plug doesn't work like that. It only uses one or the other, but I am really curious how this one from Ford actually works. CCS1 plugs normally only have a few pins in the upper portion populated, because they are just for communication, while all of the current uses the fat pins on the bottom.

80A is within the specification for J1772, so I am pretty sure it would just be sending that whole 80A on the upper portion that looks like the J1772. Except a CCS1 plug isn't supposed to do that. Maybe the station really is converting it and sending DC? But then why does it have the small voltage pins?

I notice this is the special station that the Ford Lightning needs to be able to do that backfeed into the house. I wonder if it switches in that mode. So my theory is that it just uses the top portion when charging and can do 80A AC. But then when you turn on the backfeed house supplying mode, maybe it does send that back on the DC pins of the CCS1 bottom part, since it's from the battery, and then the station does the inverting to create the AC wave feed into your house's system.

I'd like to learn more about how this one works.

But back to your original thought that it wouldn't work for your Tesla, yeah, the plug is mostly CCS1 shaped, but I don't know if the Tesla CCS1 adapter would take that with the extra pins it has that aren't supposed to be there.

 

[kayak1]

BTW, we used aluminum cause copper = $$$.

You might add a yearly reminder to shutdown and torque the connections on the aluminum wire, as they will thermal cycle with usage.

 

[Earl]

You might add a yearly reminder to shutdown and torque the connections on the aluminum wire, as they will thermal cycle with usage.

I hope that @dafish is using connectors that are specifically designed for aluminum wire. Screw connections count on the springiness (there's probably a better term but I'm just an EE) of copper wire to push back against the screw to maintain a solid connection. The problem with aluminum is that, rather than springing back, it tends to crush when squeezed by a screw. Tightening will postpone, but not prevent, the inevitable and just crushes it further. Without the back force against the screw, non-conducting oxide layers can build up between the screw and the wire which can cause the wire to heat up and catch fire.
The problem, of course, is that terminals rated for aluminum wire are more expensive than ones for copper so folks often cheap out with both the wire and the terminals.

 

[dafish]

Thank you gentlemen. A few things:

1) When I said "we did" or "used", I was being a bit brief. This was a very large project with lots of drops and longer distances. We most certainly had a certifiied union electrician do the work. We explicitly discussed aluminum vs copper. My directions to him were fairly simple:

1. Equipment certified for aluminum or aluminum copper pigtails only. Safety was to never be compromised, but if we reduced cost safely and significantly to do so.
2. They were paid T&M, as we do almost all projects. I don't want workers cutting corners to get jobs done "on budget". I PM work so we don't get screwed, but aside from that it takes however long it takes to get done right.

2) I know the 80 amp aluminum drops were pigtailed, as were the longer runs.
3) The 200 amp subpanel was wired direct using aluminum approved breakers (memory)
4) Shorter runs were on copper.

That said this is a good reminder to make an inventory how each run was done and to make a check list of things to monitor. Mind you at this time only 2 of the 6 or 7 drops have ever been used.

 

[Roy2001]

Why would you think that? It almost certainly will. What kind of plug does it have on it? Is it a J1772 plug?

Are you thinking because of the amp level? That can always still work. The charging station has a signal that announces how many amps are available. Then the car sees that and requests how much it wants. So there is always a negotiation there. That's no problem if the station announces it has 80A available, and then the car sees that and says "I only want 48A". There's no force-feeding from the station. It's the car that requests and draws how much it wants. But if a station announces it only has 24A, then the car won't request more than 24A.

That is how Ford 80A charger works, to my knowledge. The lower part for DC charger is there, preventing it being used anyway.