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General Discussion: 2018 Investor Roundtable

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I want to see the article on how they plan to get batteries for all those cars. I assume you havn't studied the matter. No auto makers on the planet are building giant battery factories and out side of China, there is all of a single gigafactory between the dozens of car companies coming out with hundreds of Tesla killing EV models and that capacity is planned for like 2023. What they presented is fluffy lies with no basis in reality. Everyone is waiting for someone to make batteries for them and someone will, at a very high Mark up. Because demand will be infinitely higher then supply (econ 101). So it's great that gm had endless amounts of money to burn making very only and half cars because they are going to need it to survive. At the end of the day, Tesla wants everyone making EVs. And they want then to succeed. Like they really want them to succeed so Tesla doesn't have to do all themselves.
While I do not have the whole picture, I do know that there are quite advanced plans to build a "gigafactory" for batteries in Sweden. Northvolt, a company founded by ex-Tesla vp (?) Peter Carlsson, is setting up a pilot in Västerås (central country, home of ABB) and starting soon a full-scale factory in Skellefteå (north country, mining region), with funding from several big names like ABB, Scania (now VW-owned), Vestas and others. The pilot building may start in May 2018. But it's true they don't have any production today. Financing may be problematic too.

I think Volvo also has plans for battery manufacture.
 
If it goes to 650 billion, he'll be worth north of 100 billion. Isn't that motivation enough? if Elon is truly motivated by the good of humanity, this package would be unnecessary and a waste of resources.

In order to guarantee Tesla continues to serve humanity and not the vanity of wealthy pseudo environmentalist Elon needs to control Tesla.

That is what motivates Elon to accumulate shares.
 
While I do not have the whole picture, I do know that there are quite advanced plans to build a "gigafactory" for batteries in Sweden. Northvolt, a company founded by ex-Tesla vp (?) Peter Carlsson, is setting up a pilot in Västerås (central country, home of ABB) and starting soon a full-scale factory in Skellefteå (north country, mining region), with funding from several big names like ABB, Scania (now VW-owned), Vestas and others. The pilot building may start in May 2018. But it's true they don't have any production today. Financing may be problematic too.

I think Volvo also has plans for battery manufacture.

NorthVolt plans to start production in late 2020

2021 NV plans to manufacture 8 GWh of cells.
2026 NV plans full capacity to be 32 GWh of cells.

NorthVolt plans to concentrate on Battery Energy Storage but I am sure they would sell to automakers if they came calling.

Volvo has zero public plans to manufacture cells.

Volvo parent company Geely in partnership with Chinese battery company Corun does plan to open a battery factory in China.
 
NorthVolt plans to start production in late 2020

2021 NV plans to manufacture 8 GWh of cells.
2026 NV plans full capacity to be 32 GWh of cells.

NorthVolt plans to concentrate on Battery Energy Storage but I am sure they would sell to automakers if they came calling.

Volvo has zero public plans to manufacture cells.

Volvo parent company Geely in partnership with Chinese battery company Corun does plan to open a battery factory in China.
Yes, all others are slow to start. But some are getting started. "Soon".
 
While I do not have the whole picture, I do know that there are quite advanced plans to build a "gigafactory" for batteries in Sweden. Northvolt, a company founded by ex-Tesla vp (?) Peter Carlsson, is setting up a pilot in Västerås (central country, home of ABB) and starting soon a full-scale factory in Skellefteå (north country, mining region), with funding from several big names like ABB, Scania (now VW-owned), Vestas and others. The pilot building may start in May 2018. But it's true they don't have any production today. Financing may be problematic too.

I think Volvo also has plans for battery manufacture.

I included North volt in my sum total by 2023. Gigafactory is a silly term meaning 1GWh of something manufactured per year. Tesla's gigafactory is targeting 35GWh the year, 100GWh or more by 2020. North volt is targeting 20GWh by 2023. It really doesn't matter much because there is only one solution, massive scale and no one out side of China is doing it besides Tesla. Costs only come down at this point with massive scale. Chinese batteries will not be exported as they are being made to Chinese standards for safety and are not viable for 250+ mile range cars.

I'm not saying there is no battery manufacturing going on. Just not the right solution and not at the volumes required for literally 120+ models coming in 2020. It's really simple. Tesla's has all of Panasonic and gigafactory and cannot produce enough batteries for 120,000 cars today. They had to buy cells from Samsung for Australia. Tesla started 3 years ago on the gigafactory? If cars are coming in 2020 they needed to break ground on battery factories 3 years ago and only North volt and catl in China have done so on a gigafactory scale, though much smaller and shower ramps.

Someone will build batteries, but because of supply constraints, the costs to auto companies will be high.

Lastly, Tesla wants competition. It's party of the master plan to force a change and thus far it's all talk by traditional autos. All hat, no cattle as they say in Texas.

edit: of course encyclopedia Rob hit the nail on the head as always. I believe that China will actually be the battle field for EVs for all manufactures, including gm, the Germans and Tesla. This is because of their aggressive government policies. Now Tesla also needs to get going there. We know it's been just around the corner for a long time, but that time is now. I believe Tesla is keeping the powder dry on this and that things are very far advanced in the planning stages and I expect things to move fast once it's announced.
 
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I included North volt in my sum total by 2023. Gigafactory is a silly term meaning 1GWh of something manufactured per year. Tesla's gigafactory is targeting 35GWh the year, 100GWh or more by 2020. North volt is targeting 20GWh by 2023. It really doesn't matter much because there is only one solution, massive scale and no one out side of China is doing it besides Tesla. Costs only come down at this point with massive scale. Chinese batteries will not be exported as they are being made to Chinese standards for safety and are not viable for 250+ mile range cars.

I'm not saying there is no battery manufacturing going on. Just not the right solution and not at the volumes required for literally 120+ models coming in 2020. It's really simple. Tesla's has all of Panasonic and gigafactory and cannot produce enough batteries for 120,000 cars today. They had to buy cells from Samsung for Australia. Tesla started 3 years ago on the gigafactory? If cars are coming in 2020 they needed to break ground on battery factories 3 years ago and only North volt and catl in China have done so on a gigafactory scale, though much smaller and shower ramps.

Someone will build batteries, but because of supply constraints, the costs to auto companies will be high.

Lastly, Tesla wants competition. It's party of the master plan to force a change and thus far it's all talk by traditional autos. All hat, no cattle as they say in Texas.
I think we are in agreement; I just didn't see that you had included Northvolt. That was my additional info / attempt at clarification.
 
While I do not have the whole picture, I do know that there are quite advanced plans to build a "gigafactory" for batteries in Sweden. Northvolt, a company founded by ex-Tesla vp (?) Peter Carlsson, is setting up a pilot in Västerås (central country, home of ABB) and starting soon a full-scale factory in Skellefteå (north country, mining region), with funding from several big names like ABB, Scania (now VW-owned), Vestas and others. The pilot building may start in May 2018. But it's true they don't have any production today. Financing may be problematic too.

I think Volvo also has plans for battery manufacture.

Daimler is also investing and want to produce batteries in 6 location. As this are all positive signals looking at the investment size and schedule I am not convinced that they are building enough batteries anytime soon to support the demand required in case they build good EVs people really want to buy. Maybe they plan for low EV adoption which will be another issue or shows they are not confident either with their ability to compete or demand creation. It reminds me of the often repeated EM sentence of linear versus exponential progression. Hard to embrace for the human brain! If you did not experience it anywhere you won't believe it.

I still remember when the GF1 plan came up and they started building. The FUD in the news that there is simply no demand for a factory with that output and Tesla will be chapter 11 soon was everywhere. Now we face bottlenecks at the GF and would want to have a second one as backup to catch up with demand.

Last not least the costs advantage of Tesla in terms of battery production is quite impressive and will rather grow than shrink. Only with large scale and high automation the costs Tesla has and will have are achievable. Although the plant planned in Sweden will be the largest in Europe financed by customers like VW (Skania) they will produce batteries for cars but also for industrial use. As this is all good we need not one of those but 5 projects of that size starting today. Finally the Swedish Factory is still a supplier plant and not an integrated part of the automakers. Having said that we need to understand that they will ask for profit as well which will add to higher cost per unit.

Another point that struck me is the platform. Daimler and Porsche are building from scratch which IMHO is the only way to create a similar drive feeling as with Tesla. BMW and VW are electrifying their existing models (exception is i3) which will not create the same advantages the other two have. My prediction is that all automaker who build EVs from stretch on a white piece of paper has a better chance to get a car out that is somewhere near a Tesla.

I spare the SC part ....

So although automakers are making progress and may feel the heat they are more behind than anticipated a year ago. That gap will likely expand further and make Tesla stronger with every day that passes by.
 
Does anyone have a link for how much inventory cars are discounted?

This is the only one I could find, which says "up to $30k." IIRC Tesla fired this sales person, but "new inventory" is discounted, but by how much?

What's the average? $10k? $15k? $20k?
 
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I included North volt in my sum total by 2023. Gigafactory is a silly term meaning 1GWh of something manufactured per year. Tesla's gigafactory is targeting 35GWh the year, 100GWh or more by 2020. North volt is targeting 20GWh by 2023. It really doesn't matter much because there is only one solution, massive scale and no one out side of China is doing it besides Tesla. Costs only come down at this point with massive scale. Chinese batteries will not be exported as they are being made to Chinese standards for safety and are not viable for 250+ mile range cars.

Taking North Volt aspirations with a pound of salt is dead right IMO. I'd only add as further support of that view, that NV doesn't have a partner like Panasonic with proven and industry leading manufacturing capabilities. For all Teslas engineering brilliance, innovation and work ethic, I don't believe they could have reached 35GWh nearly five years after breaking ground on GF1 absent Panasonic's strengths.
Grading of GF1 site began June of 2014, so if they reach 35GWh by end of this year, that milestone would have taken them 4 1/2 years.
 
Does anyone have a link for how much inventory cars are discounted?

This is the only one I could find, which says "up to $30k." IIRC Tesla fired this sales person, but "new inventory" is discounted, but by how much?

What's the average? $10k? $15k? $20k?

$30k would be on a P100D level vehicle. Typically the cars are 6 months or so old and have 1k+ miles. I bought my S90D and it was $18k off, but at that time, others where between 12-18K. I would assume a 75D level car would be a lower discount. You could probably figure out a rough percentage that make sense. I think mine was on the cheaper end because it was not completely flawless and had more miles then others.
 
Can anyone make sense of the 8-K?

I thought the fully automated lines had 3x to 4x capacity of original lines. Why is their weekly capacity only 2,500 units?


IMO, they have the potential, but as long as everything isn't in place, they can just operate to maximum 2,500 units, because the other non fully automated lines aren't up to speed.
So they have to adapt the fully automated lines.
 
$30k would be on a P100D level vehicle. Typically the cars are 6 months or so old and have 1k+ miles. I bought my S90D and it was $18k off, but at that time, others where between 12-18K. I would assume a 75D level car would be a lower discount. You could probably figure out a rough percentage that make sense. I think mine was on the cheaper end because it was not completely flawless and had more miles then others.

So if we use $15k as avg discount, does that mean 6,000-unit "new inventory" liquidation in 4Q17 caused a ~$100m hit to gross profit vs. what it would have been with a normal mix of custom vs. inventory cars? In other words, $100m vs. $2.5B automotive rev (excl. Model 3) = 4% temporary hit to S/X gross margin, which should reverse in 1Q18? What am I missing?
 
Taking North Volt aspirations with a pound of salt is dead right IMO. I'd only add as further support of that view, that NV doesn't have a partner like Panasonic with proven and industry leading manufacturing capabilities. For all Teslas engineering brilliance, innovation and work ethic, I don't believe they could have reached 35GWh nearly five years after breaking ground on GF1 absent Panasonic's strengths.
Grading of GF1 site began June of 2014, so if they reach 35GWh by end of this year, that milestone would have taken them 4 1/2 years.

I agree with the total premise, but if some company with deep pockets was motivated, they could accelerate things by dumping massive amounts of money and building multiple factories at the same time. For instance, they could lease a very large building and start building out custom equipment and then just move it once the mega factory is built. With enough money they could accelerate things though that wouldn't exactly help the cost side of the equation, only the supply side. No company would do this because it would be insane and stupid.

I hate to keep harping on this, but some 40 automakers are coming out with 1-20 vehicles in the next 22 months. If each averages 50KWh packs and its 100 total vehicles and each is 20,000 for 2020-2021. That is 100GWh for what amounts to less then 1/2 the production for Model S on average for each model. All these things cannot be true without a 100GWh or battery capacity:

1) Competition is coming with a large and diverse numbers of models
2) Competition is going to have better cars because they are so innovative as shown by 100 years of tiny incremental improvements
3) Competition is experienced with manufacturing so they will build massive numbers of cars in months not years.
4) Competition is going to sell the same number of ICEv and then sell EVs only to people who would have bought a Tesla.

None of the above is even possible because there hasnt been any major planning or serious investment to accomplish that, though some has been announced. There is not a magical 100GWh factory out there waiting to spin up. I am not saying BMW and Daimler cannot innovate, I am saying that they wont because they dont believe its necessary, because if they did believe it, it would be happening. These are massively powerful companies with lots of money and smarts and if they wanted to do something they could. They only improve things incrementally because that is the cost effective thing to do and they only do the minimum they have to do to assure higher profits. They have smart people and they can hire smarter people, but they dont want to. Its not a lack of ability its a lack of will. Elon does not have some massive ability that no one else has, he has a massive will that is undeniable and he is on a mission that people have rallied around. I can assure you if the mission was to make the best ICEv, he wouldnt have so many people jumping on board. I know this is a fact because Elon cannot do every job at Tesla or SpaceX and he must will it into happening. This is why the goals are always so aspirational. Its why people want to work there and they will work harder then they would otherwise. Its why some people become burned out there and move on to kushier jobs and having children, I can totally understand that. The main difference between the old guard of the auto world and the new guard is the will to do what must be done. Even though Tesla and Elon are starting to force their hands a bit, they are still far from making the types of moves required for their long term survival. They have enough cash and enough government support to last decades, but they have peaked and its all down hill from here.

What could be true:

About half the planned vehicles will ever see the light of day. About half of those will be late by 1-5 years. Of those that make it by 2020, only a few will be built in quantities that would be considered something other then compliance cars. So about 10GWh of cars by 2020, which roughly matches supply. This is about the total for Model S/X production last year. Having stated all this, I do believe that Chinese manufacturers will do at least that much in 2020 in the Chinese market and battery supplies also are inline with that. Beyond 2020, I see all the major manufactures competing mostly in China and some of that capability bleeding into the other major auto markets, but the real battle ground will be China. This is mostly due to how serious the government is there about moving away from dirty fuels. This could also be a tremendous market for stationery power due to the massive amounts of solar and wind?? being deployed there. In ten years or less, China could be a trillion dollar market for EVs and storage. Can Tesla get a good chunk of that?
 
Can anyone make sense of the 8-K?

I thought the fully automated lines had 3x to 4x capacity of original lines. Why is their weekly capacity only 2,500 units?
They have 4 existing lines, maybe the new automated line is 3-4x of one of the existing lines? As a simplistic example, each of the current line can do 600/wk, 4 lines together they can do 2400/wk. The new line can do 2500/wk by itself, it replaces one of the existing lines, and now you can do 600*3 + 2500, at 4300/wk. With a little tweaking and speeding up maybe you get to 500/wk.
 
So if we use $15k as avg discount, does that mean 6,000-unit "new inventory" liquidation in 4Q17 caused a ~$100m hit to gross profit vs. what it would have been with a normal mix of custom vs. inventory cars? In other words, $100m vs. $2.5B automotive rev (excl. Model 3) = 4% temporary hit to S/X gross margin, which should reverse in 1Q18? What am I missing?

No. Not all of the 6000 cars fall into the category mine did. My car was a display/demo/loaner. My car was q3 as well, not q4. New cars that did not have miles on them where not sold at massive discounts. When I was looking, every car had close to 1000 miles. I dont know how many of the 6000 fit this criteria, but I highly doubt all them did. That would be 10 cars per store per quarter.. 10 x 300 x 2 quarters. This is also not something that would be specific to the last 2 quarters, as they would be constantly churning these cars. They used to use CPO cars, but decided to switch to P100Ds and nicer cars. It makes some sense, because CPOs would have very low margins, while P100Ds have huge margins and could be discounted and still have good margins. For Tesla, a P100D does not cost much more then a 100D because its just a larger rear motor and maybe some supporting hardware for $60k more then the a base model. The person buying that car at $30k off, would never have been in the market for a new P100D, or they would have bought one. Basically they are selling a 100D++ in terms of cost for the price of a Discounted P100D, the net should be very small. I know that not all where P100Ds, as mine was a 90D and many where discontinued 90KWh pack based cars, so knowing the mix would be critical.
 
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