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General Discussion: 2018 Investor Roundtable

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Relying on customers to stretch is not a reliable long term business model. In absolute terms I'm sure more people can stretch to 50k than to 70k (never mind 100k), and more than can stretch to 35k than either of those, but as a percentage of the reservations of the Model 3 and potential reservations of Model Y, I suspect that both those potential buyer pools are going to be much more price sensitive. For Model Y nobody will expect a tax credit, but it still matters because while the market is bigger for a CUV than a sedan, the effective price (including lack of incentives) dampers that a bit. For the 3, there is a window of opportunity that is slipping away for a large portion of the ptotential buyers who could only stretch to 35-50k with the incentives, and without incentives will have to give up options or give up the car altogether. Arguably they couldn't afford the car anyways if that is the case, but the same can be said about many who stretched for S/X.

Those who can't afford the options they want may be dissuaded from buying at all and hope prices come down in the future or buy an off lease vehicle in the future, because perhaps a good portion of the value of the vehicle is the options (i.e. EAP). While this doesn't affect absolute sales rate for Tesla in the near future, possibly for 2018, as they will have more buyers lined up behind them, it may make it hard to maintain sales velocity into next year and the year after that as a chunk of the buyer pool will have been squeezed out or discouraged.
 
Relying on customers to stretch is not a reliable long term business model. In absolute terms I'm sure more people can stretch to 50k than to 70k (never mind 100k), and more than can stretch to 35k than either of those, but as a percentage of the reservations of the Model 3 and potential reservations of Model Y, I suspect that both those potential buyer pools are going to be much more price sensitive. For Model Y nobody will expect a tax credit, but it still matters because while the market is bigger for a CUV than a sedan, the effective price (including lack of incentives) dampers that a bit. For the 3, there is a window of opportunity that is slipping away for a large portion of the ptotential buyers who could only stretch to 35-50k with the incentives, and without incentives will have to give up options or give up the car altogether. Arguably they couldn't afford the car anyways if that is the case, but the same can be said about many who stretched for S/X.

Those who can't afford the options they want may be dissuaded from buying at all and hope prices come down in the future or buy an off lease vehicle in the future, because perhaps a good portion of the value of the vehicle is the options (i.e. EAP). While this doesn't affect absolute sales rate for Tesla in the near future, possibly for 2018, as they will have more buyers lined up behind them, it may make it hard to maintain sales velocity into next year and the year after that as a chunk of the buyer pool will have been squeezed out or discouraged.

While this is far from my area of expertise, I assume many if not most buyers that can't afford a 35k vehicle are also buyers that will not benefit from the full $7500 tax credit.
 
Relying on customers to stretch is not a reliable long term business model. In absolute terms I'm sure more people can stretch to 50k than to 70k (never mind 100k), and more than can stretch to 35k than either of those, but as a percentage of the reservations of the Model 3 and potential reservations of Model Y, I suspect that both those potential buyer pools are going to be much more price sensitive. For Model Y nobody will expect a tax credit, but it still matters because while the market is bigger for a CUV than a sedan, the effective price (including lack of incentives) dampers that a bit. For the 3, there is a window of opportunity that is slipping away for a large portion of the ptotential buyers who could only stretch to 35-50k with the incentives, and without incentives will have to give up options or give up the car altogether. Arguably they couldn't afford the car anyways if that is the case, but the same can be said about many who stretched for S/X.

Those who can't afford the options they want may be dissuaded from buying at all and hope prices come down in the future or buy an off lease vehicle in the future, because perhaps a good portion of the value of the vehicle is the options (i.e. EAP). While this doesn't affect absolute sales rate for Tesla in the near future, possibly for 2018, as they will have more buyers lined up behind them, it may make it hard to maintain sales velocity into next year and the year after that as a chunk of the buyer pool will have been squeezed out or discouraged.

I believe you’re flat out wrong about the general sentiment of this post for the same reasons Tesla under estimated how many Model Ss they’d sell per year.
 
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Worth noting, Musk's occupation with SpaceX does in fact predate his occupation at Tesla.

...

Just trying to offer some context as to why what some of us hear as a tone (whether intended or not) of Musk having 'failed' us, 'let us down' etc, for a preoccupation with SpaceX doesn't receive a resounding chorus of agrees.
Agreed. Then, I presume you agree that those who do not know that history have consideration to complain (as I did when I didn't know that history), but having known the history, look at it as a historical opportunity that worked in our favor.
 
While this is far from my area of expertise, I assume many if not most buyers that can't afford a 35k vehicle are also buyers that will not benefit from the full $7500 tax credit.

Very true, often over looked feature of the tax credit. It's a tax credit which is not a tax write off. This means it lowers the tax due not the taxable income. So if you only owe $5000 in taxes after all is said and done, then your tax credit for the EV it's only worth $5000. There unused credit does not carry on to the next year. In the US, you need to make about $50,000 per year with no kids to pay any federal taxes. If you take the average family of 4 in the US, they could not take advantage of this tax credit at the full amount until they got into the $100,000 income range. Tesla might be factoring this into their decision.

I am unsure how this works with leases because Tesla gets the credit but has little or no income so no real tax liability. On leases they increase the residual value for calculating lease payments to include the amount of the tax credit. How Tesla benefits from this, I have no clue. If Tesla does not have income to offset, they would just be discounting every leased car by $7500 or the amount of the tax credit at that time. Maybe the 35k model is coming with lease options and that's why it's being delayed. Tesla cannot afford to eat the credits without tax liabilities which only come from having income. Oh and those rates just went down considerably.
 
While this is far from my area of expertise, I assume many if not most buyers that can't afford a 35k vehicle are also buyers that will not benefit from the full $7500 tax credit.
Not sure that is true as I know the tax credit was very important for many Leaf and Volt buyers. Price does matter to most people.
Are you sure those buyers weren’t motivated by the EV aspect more so than the price point?

What is known is that you have to make a certain amount of money to have a $7,500 federal tax burden.
Yes many working people pay north of $7500 in federal taxes and wantor need affordable transportation. Remember there are far more Malibu’s, Camrys and Accords sold than BMWs. The reason is price matters. I doubt I would have paid $36000 for our Volt but at $29k it was very competitive with the Prius we were driving.
 
Relying on customers to stretch is not a reliable long term business model. In absolute terms I'm sure more people can stretch to 50k than to 70k (never mind 100k), and more than can stretch to 35k than either of those, but as a percentage of the reservations of the Model 3 and potential reservations of Model Y, I suspect that both those potential buyer pools are going to be much more price sensitive. For Model Y nobody will expect a tax credit, but it still matters because while the market is bigger for a CUV than a sedan, the effective price (including lack of incentives) dampers that a bit. For the 3, there is a window of opportunity that is slipping away for a large portion of the ptotential buyers who could only stretch to 35-50k with the incentives, and without incentives will have to give up options or give up the car altogether. Arguably they couldn't afford the car anyways if that is the case, but the same can be said about many who stretched for S/X.

Those who can't afford the options they want may be dissuaded from buying at all and hope prices come down in the future or buy an off lease vehicle in the future, because perhaps a good portion of the value of the vehicle is the options (i.e. EAP). While this doesn't affect absolute sales rate for Tesla in the near future, possibly for 2018, as they will have more buyers lined up behind them, it may make it hard to maintain sales velocity into next year and the year after that as a chunk of the buyer pool will have been squeezed out or discouraged.

Your basic premise has an error. First, stats from model 3 info.com shows the average reservation holders expects to pay $50,000 for the car. I would not have expected that but this is also supported by @Troy who had gathered data from reservation holders and less then 1/4 want the base model with no upgrades. My guess is that only 1 in 10 cars sold will have no options. This tells me that people know what they want and they know it's going to cost them.

Here is the basics of my theory. The car is sexy enough to encourage People to do some the basic math. For example when you buy a $23,000 car it has an starting value lower then a $35,000 car. This value is mostly retained during the time period the car is owned. After 5 years, both cars are worth half what they used to be. Or $11,500 vs $17,500. The original $12,000 difference has shrink to just $6000. This assumed both cars hold their value at the same level. I contend the Tesla will be worth much more due to three factors; OTA updates, the available of upgrades like EAP/FSD via software and the simplistic EV drivetrain that is more digital then mechanical. My estimation is that if Tesla can pull off FSD, every single S3XY ever built will eventually have these features enabled. Think about that for a second. If there are a million AP2+ cars on the road and 75% have EAP and 30% have EAP+FSD the day fsd goes live or as I like to think of it, becomes self aware. That means 250,000 cars will have the ability to update to fsd for $9000 and another 700,000 can spend just $4000 to enable the feature. This will instantly make those cars more valuable then they were the previous day. That is over $5B in potential extremely high margin revenue that will eventually be captured. Either the current owner or next owner will activate the features.

But let's assume the residual value is fairly comparative between the icev and the EV. That $6000 difference is only $1200 per year. That's $100 a month for someone to justify. Now if you drive 15,000+ miles per year, that decision is easy. The cost per mile difference is enough to justify that difference. Including maintenance the cost per mile is North of 12c per mile vs 2-5c per mile depending on what you pay for electricity. The more you drive, the better the deal is for the EV and the cheaper the electricity, say adding solar, the better it is for the EV. Let's not forget the federal gas tax that's coming and the eventual increase in local gas taxes for infrastructure investment.

I selected $23,000 for a reason. It's the base price for a Toyota Camry. This basic math can be applied to any vehicle and any version of the model 3. If you own a Maxima or a Toyota Avalon, you can afford more model 3. If you own an Audi or BMW then you can afford even more. The market for the model 3 is tremendous and only limited because it's not a hatchback or an SUV. Not because it's too expensive. That is a false narrative.

Here is why Tesla will succeed based on the analysis here. The math is easy but people are lazy and dumb. It's hard to get people to think. One way is to dangle a sexy as hell car in front of them or a beautiful women. Each of those will compel people to do the math. Whether it's the sex appeal of the car or the green aspects of EVs, the math is easy enough if people are motivated enough to do it. No one is doing math for a bolt.
 
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Not sure that is true as I know the tax credit was very important for many Leaf and Volt buyers. Price does matter to most people.
Even though I make decent money I ended up leasing my LEAF in 2016 because I couldn't take advantage of much of the tax credit but the lease price factored in some of the tax credit savings Nissan got. I think one likely explantion is these people didn't understand how the credit worked.
 
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Gee I have mixed feelings about the model three at 35,000.
If they hold off on making the short range version I'll make a lot of money on the stock, but I can't bring myself to spend what they want for the long-range version.

I suppose if you were certain medium to long range trips would be a rare occurrence, spending the extra 9K for extra range would not make sense. In context of owing an M3 for a number of years, the $9K isn't a compelling reason to go with SR M3 for most reservation holders.
1. Better flexibility on where and when you must use a Supercharger to complete a trip with good reserve. This is a BIG plus if you do drive longer distances on a semi frequent basis.
2. Better initial 0 - 60 and likely faster still if they 'uncork' more of the larger battery's current in a few years as they did with MS/MX.
3. You will recover some portion of the add'l 9K if you sell in a few years rather than drive it 10+ years.
 
An "employee's and line waiter's window" might help Tesla out financially.

The idea is that a high reference price is key to Tesla's future. If Elon made enough $35K cars at the end of the full rebate window to meet all employee and line waiter demand, then went back to the 50K mostly mix, that might keep the reference price high.

This maintains contribution dollars while letting Elon do something special for the line waiters and employees.

Reasonable marriage of goodwill and contribution dollars...
 
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A Reddit post has alerted me to this new Bloomberg article. They claim they've created their own M3 tracker, but it feels like a straight copy of the one created by the community. I feel like they just took all the data from there, or copied the bots' logic and added in "VINs reported directly to Bloomberg" (they have one VIN reported to them) to claim this is unique.

We Set Out to Crack Tesla's Biggest Mystery: How Many Model 3s It's Making
 
A Reddit post has alerted me to this new Bloomberg article. They claim they've created their own M3 tracker, but it feels like a straight copy of the one created by the community. I feel like they just took all the data from there, or copied the bots' logic and added in "VINs reported directly to Bloomberg" (they have one VIN reported to them) to claim this is unique.

We Set Out to Crack Tesla's Biggest Mystery: How Many Model 3s It's Making

It is a copy

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Very true, often over looked feature of the tax credit. It's a tax credit which is not a tax write off. This means it lowers the tax due not the taxable income. So if you only owe $5000 in taxes after all is said and done...

I see it very simply, as I see all things:

Step 1) look at box 2 on your w-2 form.
Step 2) subtract your typical refund
Step 3) that is how much the tax credit saves you (or $7.5K, whichever is more)

Since I see that payment as coming out of my bank account where all my after tax dollars live, that tax credit is like getting a $10,000 bonus in salary.
 
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A Reddit post has alerted me to this new Bloomberg article. They claim they've created their own M3 tracker, but it feels like a straight copy of the one created by the community. I feel like they just took all the data from there, or copied the bots' logic and added in "VINs reported directly to Bloomberg" (they have one VIN reported to them) to claim this is unique.

We Set Out to Crack Tesla's Biggest Mystery: How Many Model 3s It's Making

Bad Bloomberg, baad. What if we were to copy your articles like that, eh? That is not fair use.
 
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