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General Discussion: 2018 Investor Roundtable

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FUDsters don't want "endless argument". They want to plant unsubstantiated fear and doubt into the minds of a broad audience.
I think this audience does a good job of pointing out their flaws initially. After that ignoring them gives them nothing to work with. There is enough good solid reasoning on this board that anyone reading will see what the FUDsters are doing even if no one directly engages with them.
 
My opinion is likely to be unpopular here, but I believe that "ignore list" feature is not beneficial at a general level.

False narratives that go uncontested, tend to stick. This has traditionally happened in the political realm: "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" published numerous lies about presidential Candidate John Kerry during the '04 US campaign. The Kerry campaign was slow to react, and many voters ended up believing the lies. A more tech-oriented example is Apple's repeated claim during the "Get a Mac" ad campaign in the mid-late 2000's, that "Macs don't get PC viruses". While technically true (A virus compiled as an MS Windows program won't run in OS X, and if one considers PCs to be completely distinct from Macs -- I note that many people in the general public consider "Personal Computer" to encompass both Windows and macOS machines), this lead to many consumers believing that Macs are immune to malware generally, which is a highly dangerous belief that has proven difficult to root out. Pun intended.

FUD that goes uncontested here, could very well be believed by any number of newer members or non-member readership of the forum.

Replying more than a few times to well known FUDsters just makes them post even more and get more attention (which is what they want)
Ignoring might not be the best option -- but it has worked for me. It's super annoying to even have to read a single line.
Best might just be disagree button. If enough well respected TMC peers click on the disagree button on a FUD article, I think the FUDsters image is gonna sink to hell

~ Cheers!!
 
no manipulating.
You said cash burn was 100 million.

You're really talking about different things. It is factually correct that Tesla's cash reserves went from 3.53B in Q3 to 3.37B in Q4, or a reduction of 160M. If Tesla could maintain that rate of reduction, Tesla's current cash reserves would last for an additional 21 quarters.

The main thing I'm seeing in the financial media, repeated over and over since the updated Bloomberg bond rating, is an assertion that Tesla will somehow be unable to pay its bills soon.

Looking at the 2017 Annual Report Tesla - Annual Report, on p. 63, we can see Tesla's last known cash position:

I look at things in terms of Energy and Power. Money or Money valued assets are Energy. Power is ability to move Money over a time period. One could have a lot of Energy stored up, but not be able to move it, as in an illiquid asset like a house. Or one could have only a modest amount of Energy stored up, but be able to disburse it immediately, as in a $20 bill in hand.

I look at short term Energy Needs and Power availability.

What Tesla has on hand (Energy Available):
Cash and Cash Equivalents 3,367,914 (bank account)
Accounts receivable, net 515,381 (money likely to come in soon)
Restricted cash (I ignored this, because it is not resources the company can use in the near term)
Inventory 2,263,537 (resources that can be quickly turned into items to sell, and/or finished goods ready to ship)
Prepaid expenses and other current assets 268,365
6,415,197 Billion in Cash + Materials & Other Stuff (services, utilities, etc.) to build product


What Tesla has to disburse (Energy Needed):
Accounts payable 2,390,250 (purchases that have been invoiced from suppliers)
Accrued liabilities 1,731,366 (purchases from suppliers that have not yet been invoiced)
Current portion of long-term debt and capital leases 796,549 (loan payments due in the next year)
Current portion of solar bonds and promissory notes issued to related parties 100,000 (loan payments due in the next year)
5,018,065 Billion total in invoices that will come due, invoices that haven't yet been received, long term loan debt that is due.


Other items on the liability side to address. I'm not sure how much Energy draw these actually cause over a quarter, but I suspect it is much less than their line value.
  • Deferred revenue 1,015,253. This is $$$ that Tesla has received from customers for product that they have not yet delivered. It shouldn't cost them this amount to produce and deliver the product.
  • Resale value guarantees 787,333. This is $$$ that Tesla might have to pay to buy back cars covered by their previous Resale guarantee program. Keep in mind that any buybacks would take place over time longer than the quarter, and that any cars purchased back are themselves assets that can be resold.
  • Customer deposits 853,919. Self explanatory. $$$, ether $1000/unit for Model 3, or $2500/unit for Model S or X, to reserve a place in line to buy a vehicle. Tesla will likely spend only a % of this amount per car to actually produce and deliver. The liability this incurs is spread out over time.

The key question is whether Tesla as an institution can provide enough Power to satisfy the Draw of its existence. Suppliers of materials, services, and utilities need to be paid. Debts have to be paid. Employees need to be compensated.

And on the other side, Tesla is being supplied with Power: customers pay for their vehicles, solar systems, energy storage systems, and anything else Tesla sells. Capital and debt raises also supply Power.

Moody's estimated that Tesla currently needs about 500M in cash cycling in and out. I assume this is similar to my monthly expenses, where I have a checking account with some $, paychecks for $ incoming, and $ for bills outgoing. The amount varies depending on when things go in and out, but the bank calculates an Average Daily Balance for each statement.
 
I think this audience does a good job of pointing out their flaws initially. After that ignoring them gives them nothing to work with. There is enough good solid reasoning on this board that anyone reading will see what the FUDsters are doing even if no one directly engages with them.
I see a clear pattern in how FUsters engage, they want to bait you into discussing small details while ignoring the longer term big picture, and/or conveniently leaving out context/background so meaning of certain numbers/words can be twisted. If you've read any articles by some esteemed FUDsters on Seeking Alpha you will see how this works. FUDsters are here for a purpose, and they have a playbook to steer the conversation towards "fact" they they want to twist. If/when you engage you should keep in mind where the conversation is going, and how they plan to attack. Don't take the bait if you don't want to spend time to counter, or try to cut them off and preempt their arguments.
 
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I'm 99% sure they're on a 7 day schedule, here is what I posted on the Market thread.[/QUOT
A perfect response to the "cash crunch" nonsense purposefully spread by FUDsters and even some bulls who are not financially literate:

Why I have zero concerns about Tesla running out of cash
Totally agree, Short Sellers are full of it, cash balance at Beginning of quarter 3.1 Billions, Model 3 revenue will be increasing at very good pace, If they want to put a break on spending, they could cut down on supercharger expansion or slow spending on non essential stuff.
 
I'm confused about you saying Seattle is closer to Indonesia than Sydney. (Continent in between Indonesia and Sydney aside).

Google says:
12,515 km - Distance from Indonesia to Seattle
5,342 km - Distance from Indonesia to Sydney
Hah! Remembering wrong tsunami! The Japan one (Fukushima) is the one I meant... bloody jetlag.
 
So you say admit that there were a lot of non reccuring events, but still say that his "only 100 million so cash would last 35 quarters" statement was right?

Would is conditional, so yes. If 100 million were sustained, cash would last that many quarters.

I’m not claiming it will be sustained, and don’t think s/he is, either. Just like the period of higher burn rates wasn’t sustained.
 
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Totally agree, Short Sellers are full of it, cash balance at Beginning of quarter 3.1 Billions, Model 3 revenue will be increasing at very good pace, If they want to put a break on spending, they could cut down on supercharger expansion or slow spending on non essential stuff.

I think that in general, there may be too much emphasis placed on the absolute numbers of cash balance and various debts. Money and resources flows in and out of the company at different times and different amounts.

If we could graph Tesla's resource balances over time, and cash balances over time, and visualize how various inputs and outputs affect the company's ability to pay bills and fund expansion, I think we would have a more definitive answer to Tesla's financial health all around.

When I look at the company's balance sheet, I try to think about how the numbers work in a real-world way, rather than as abstract accounting entities. So far, nothing stands out to me to say that Tesla will face problems paying its bills. However, I am cognizant of the reality that there are likely things I do not know, or cannot see in the quarterly data.
 
Mod: Interesting discussion of trolling, FUD, antitrolling and counterFUD, but now that I'm off a plane and paying attention again, it can all stop please. Ignore, or ignore not; there is no discussion! Any continuation after market open tomorrow will be summarily deleted.
(I'm getting more tyrannical.) --ggr.
 
Replying more than a few times to well known FUDsters just makes them post even more and get more attention (which is what they want)
Ignoring might not be the best option -- but it has worked for me. It's super annoying to even have to read a single line.
Best might just be disagree button. If enough well respected TMC peers click on the disagree button on a FUD article, I think the FUDsters image is gonna sink to hell

~ Cheers!!

I think we’re heading in a very constructive direction here : ) !

I think when we (acting as “jurors” in the terms of Tim Urban’s excellent 2 minute video below) perceive with high confidence that this sort of intellectually dishonest posting has been made (someone is posting in the manner of an “attorney” or “witch doctor” in the terms of the video), the disagree button hit 50+ times, ie, a disagree count obviously way beyond a typical post, with no written response, is likely an improved response (communicates well with very little time spent and no clogging up the threads with futile attempts at intellectual engagement).

If someone new to the forum can’t understand what is going on,

- they can ask, and we can explain, that when in our opinion as “jurors” someone is here simply making posts here in the role of an “attorney and/or witchdoctor” rather than for a facts and reason based exchange, hitting disagree and leaving it at that is all we have time for

and/or

- we can place in our signatures comments that express this idea... ie, “I mark “disagree” and give no further time to comments I deem to be intellectually dishonest”


Here is that outstanding two minute video from Tim Urban. If you are not familiar with Tim, Elon Musk was so impressed by Tim’s long form article website, Elon invited Tim to Tesla and SpaceX to be interviewed by him.

 
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We poke around the edges of problems with AI and, of course, the details of its application, say, in the case of autopilot. This belongs in a thread on AI which I can't find now in a useful generic form; hence, this thread.

There are serious problems with leaving discussion of social problems and AI to the realm of AI researchers alone, though they should be applauded for recognizing the problem early on. See for example,

It’s Time to Study AI on Its Own Terms

Courtesy of Azeem Azhar (@azeem) | Twitter
 
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I think we’re heading in a very constructive direction here : ) !

I think when we (acting as “jurors” in the terms of Tim Urban’s excellent 2 minute video below) perceive with high confidence that this sort of intellectually dishonest posting has been made (someone is posting in the manner of an “attorney” or “witch doctor” in the terms of the video), the disagree button hit 50+ times, ie, a disagree count obviously way beyond a typical post, with no written response, is likely an improved response (communicates well with very little time spent and no clogging up the threads with futile attempts at intellectual engagement).

If someone new to the forum can’t understand what is going on,

- they can ask, and we can explain, that when in our opinion as “jurors” someone is here simply making posts here in the role of an “attorney and/or witchdoctor” rather than for a facts and reason based exchange, hitting disagree and leaving it at that is all we have time for

and/or

- we can place in our signatures comments that express this idea... ie, “I mark “disagree” and give no further time to comments I deem to be intellectually dishonest”


Here is that outstanding two minute video from Tim Urban. If you are not familiar with Tim, Elon Musk was so impressed by Tim’s long form article website, Elon invited Tim to Tesla and SpaceX to be interviewed by him.


Great video Steve. Thanks for the post. IMO to be a good investor being a 'juror' is the only way to go. Thinking about it overall it is probably a very good mantra for dealing with 'all things'. :cool:
 
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Moody's estimated that Tesla currently needs about 500M in cash cycling in and out. I assume this is similar to my monthly expenses, where I have a checking account with some $, paychecks for $ incoming, and $ for bills outgoing. The amount varies depending on when things go in and out, but the bank calculates an Average Daily Balance for each statement.

Not just that. It's also about maintaining the various convenants Tesla/Solarcity may have agreed upon with lenders.
 
How low does the share price need to be before Tesla would go private? The current market cap is $45B, but Elon Musk owns more than $10B of that. I think $35B is too much for SpaceX to swallow by itself, but might be possible with a partner.

At $200/share, only $26B would be required to acquire the non-Musk portion of Tesla. At $150/share, less than $20B would be required. I’m not an advocate for this (because, for one, I’d lose lots of money), but Elon Musk would certainly prefer Tesla to be private.
 
How low does the share price need to be before Tesla would go private? The current market cap is $45B, but Elon Musk owns more than $10B of that. I think $35B is too much for SpaceX to swallow by itself, but might be possible with a partner.

At $200/share, only $26B would be required to acquire the non-Musk portion of Tesla. At $150/share, less than $20B would be required. I’m not an advocate for this (because, for one, I’d lose lots of money), but Elon Musk would certainly prefer Tesla to be private.

I think you cover the problem in your last sentence. Tencent would not go for that sales price. Nor would I, or you, or anyone who had purchased shares in the last 2+ years. Imperical answer: some premium above the average purchase price of 51% of share holders. :)
Or some cut of future revenues.
 
I think you cover the problem in your last sentence. Tencent would not go for that sales price. Nor would I, or you, or anyone who had purchased shares in the last 2+ years. Imperical answer: some premium above the average purchase price of 51% of share holders. :)
Or some cut of future revenues.

Oh yeah, I think the floor is actually above 200, since a major partner (like Tencent) would want in well before that. I’m just trying to figure out the absolute worst-case scenario.
 
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