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General Discussion: 2018 Investor Roundtable

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For everyone who has been visiting TMC (bulls/bears), tomorrow will be a very telling day as Tesla is scheduled to release numbers after market closes. It’s not a secret that Tesla will not meet the projected 2,500/ week M3 production number for Q1, hence the current stock price....so the short-term question remains “has it all been priced in?”

This has been on my mind for the last two weeks as I am contemplating deploying some dry powder to pick up more TSLA. I think that if Tesla produces between 1,800-2,000/ week M3 (7 days) then we will have a very good chance of a nice pop to reclaim 260s/ maybe 270s if it’s above 2,000/ week (for the last 7 days). If numbers fall between 1,500-1,800, then it would explain why Elon is back to sleeping at the factory and the stock price might decrease a bit (being that it’s so low, I don’t know if it’ll move much anymore). For bears who are spelling gloom and doom, this is not the first time Elon has decided to take matters into his own hands (he is fully capable of it, let’s not get it twisted and forget his engineering/physics background, he is also a rocket scientist..) during Model S and Model X ramp, Elon tweeted about doing just that to get Tesla to where we are at now. If he stays at the factory, then I am optimistic that he and Tesla’s engineers will figure it out (sometimes you need the head honcho present to give you that extra jolt of motivation).

The question I have been asking myself today after hearing that Elon will be sleeping at the factory again is “why wait till now, why couldn’t he do this months ago?” We’ll, aside from being a very busy person, the best answer I came up with is that although there were numerous bottlenecks, Tesla was able to resolve them incrementally, and as Elon stated during the 4th Q 2017 CC,the ramp so far has been “exponential,” (although not as exponential as we TMC investors would like), it’s still moving much faster than the S/X lines (which took 5 years to get us to 2,000/ week). Hence, if M3 ramp is already at 2,000/ week in just 9 months of entering production, then I think we are at a very nice place. Previously when Elon was sleeping at the GF, I think he somewhat sized up the battery module situation and thought “we can do this, no problem.” His engineers likely thought the same, hence, the 8K was issued. So if they are in fact at 2,000/ week, then Tesla theoretically will only miss by 500/ week (that’s if you believe in the leaked email...), But this pins Elon and his team is in a very precarious situation, how does he explain the 8k? So, to show that he is NOT taking this miss lightly (even if it’s only 500 M3/ week), Elon will be sleeping at the factory.... Now, if numbers fall between 1,200-1,400 (last 7 days burst rate) then that will not be a good thing as it shows we are much slower than anticipated and there’s another level of hell we’ll be experiencing and a capital raise is necessary so we don’t cut it too close to the edge. Might as well raise the capital this Q, which Tesla should not have issues doing.

I’ll be sitting back, and watching it unfold tomorrow. At this point in time, I would still avoid options, they don’t call it a suckers bet for nothing.


" why wait till now, why couldn't he do this months ago ? ".

Most probably new bottlenecks emerged, and maybe linked to the Grohmann line. They need to mount it and tweak it perfectly.
 
It’s not a secret that Tesla will not meet the projected 2,500/ week M3 production number for Q1, hence the current stock price....so the short-term question remains “has it all been priced in?”

I think the general obsession with how many model 3s they made in the last week is pretty overblown. As an example, the stock moved less than 2% either direction in the week of their Q4 announcement, and the Model 3 production came in way below target and street estimates. As long as it's in the 1500-2300 range, I don't think investors are really going to care.

Not only that, but I don't think anyone's going to believe the "extrapolation" again. The Q4 letter says clearly:

We hit a production rate on each of our manufacturing lines that extrapolates to over 1,000 Model 3’s per week.
Spoilers: they did not sell 12k Model 3s in the 12 week quarter, which undermines any notion that the "last week production" is credible for investors. It's about as credible as Tesla's "5k/week in 2017" promise. The market is going to react to the quarterly numbers, not the numbers for the last 7 days, especially when we know that Tesla put forward a herculean effort on that last week.

Honestly, "how many Model 3s did Tesla make in the last week of the quarter" is possibly the least interesting data point that will come out tomorrow. I think Model X / S deliveries will be the most impactful data in terms of short-term stock price. Y/Y growth would be very positive for the stock, while Y/Y declines could be very negative.

Other than that, I think we're waiting until earnings.
 
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" why wait till now, why couldn't he do this months ago ? ".

Most probably new bottlenecks emerged, and maybe linked to the Grohmann line. They need to mount it and tweak it perfectly.

If they are at 2,500/ week then the new Grohman line is theoretically still on schedule. But the market knows we are a bit behind, so Elon isn’t taking anymore chances, he’s taking matters into his own hands. And yes, I think he’ll be working on the Grohman line and it’ll be running. Again, 2,000/ week would indicate that much of the bottlenecks were resolved and that he’s trying to, as you say tweak things to get it up to speed. I’m personally hoping for 280-300/ day the last 7 days.
 
If they are at 2,500/ week then the new Grohman line is theoretically still on schedule. But the market knows we are a bit behind, so Elon isn’t taking anymore chances, he’s taking matters into his own hands. And yes, I think he’ll be working on the Grohman line and it’ll be running. Again, 2,000/ week would indicate that much of the bottlenecks were resolved and that he’s trying to, as you say tweak things to get it up to speed. I’m personally hoping for 280-300/ day the last 7 days.

Just having a discussion about this.....Since EM is taking over for Doug Fields EM will be at Fremont, not the GF (Grohmann fix location)
 
I think the general obsession with how many model 3s they made in the last week is pretty overblown. As an example, the stock moved less than 2% either direction in the week of their Q4 announcement.

Not only that, but I don't think anyone's going to believe the "extrapolation" again. The Q4 letter says clearly:

We hit a production rate on each of our manufacturing lines that extrapolates to over 1,000 Model 3’s per week.
Spoilers: they did not make 12k Model 3s in the 12 week quarter, which undermines any notion that the "last week production" is credible for investors. It's about as credible as Tesla's "5k/week in 2017" promise.

Honestly, "how many Model 3s did Tesla make in the last week of the quarter" is possibly the least interesting data point that will come out tomorrow. I think Model X / S deliveries will be the most impactful data in terms of short-term stock price. Y/Y growth would be very positive for the stock, while Y/Y declines could be very negative.

Other than that, I think we're waiting until earnings.

The obsession is there because most members here already know Tesla produced a minimum between 800-1,200/ week during 1st Q. The data on many news outlet as well as Troys/ and a few others here collected supports such estimates. The exiting rate is important because it serves as a new reflection point for the next Q, although Tesla will initially slow down the 2,000/ week rate, it will eventually get there again mid-way through the 2nd Q as work itself to 3,000/4,000. Also, the idea is that even if Tesla misses, a high exiting rate will spark speculation that the ramp is doing fine. Most of us here did not take the exiting rate of last Q seriously because it was only 3 days..

MS/X matters, but it’s all eyes on 3 at this point.
 
Also, the idea is that even if Tesla misses, a high exiting rate will spark speculation that the ramp is doing fine.

I guess my reaction is...

The bears already know they're going to "miss" and never believed the 2500/wk benchmark to be achievable. And the bulls won't care, because why care this time?

Tesla's Q4 miss last year was way more significant than the Q1 miss it will post tomorrow.

If the stock only oscillated 2% during the first week of January after a much larger miss, why would you expect more movement this time?
 
We'll have to wait to gauge the customer acceptance when those concept cars are available for purchase.

One more thing about the touch-screen itself. Here in sunny SoCal, the sun beating on it inside a parked car that's already at 150 degrees (F) will challenge its survival (screen & electronics). This issue isn't as critical in cars with the screen embedded in the dash since the sun won't likely be able to hit it in the same way.

With longer days and the sun higher in the sky, summer will surely test it.

How come the engine heat has had no affect on it?
 
  • Funny
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For everyone who has been visiting TMC (bulls/bears), tomorrow will be a very telling day as Tesla is scheduled to release numbers after market closes. It’s not a secret that Tesla will not meet the projected 2,500/ week M3 production number for Q1, hence the current stock price....so the short-term question remains “has it all been priced in?”

This has been on my mind for the last two weeks as I am contemplating deploying some dry powder to pick up more TSLA. I think that if Tesla produces between 1,800-2,000/ week M3 (7 days) then we will have a very good chance of a nice pop to reclaim 260s/ maybe 270s if it’s above 2,000/ week (for the last 7 days). If numbers fall between 1,500-1,800, then it would explain why Elon is back to sleeping at the factory and the stock price might decrease a bit (being that it’s so low, I don’t know if it’ll move much anymore). For bears who are spelling gloom and doom, this is not the first time Elon has decided to take matters into his own hands (he is fully capable of it, let’s not get it twisted and forget his engineering/physics background, he is also a rocket scientist..) during Model S and Model X ramp, Elon tweeted about doing just that to get Tesla to where we are at now. If he stays at the factory, then I am optimistic that he and Tesla’s engineers will figure it out (sometimes you need the head honcho present to give you that extra jolt of motivation).

The question I have been asking myself today after hearing that Elon will be sleeping at the factory again is “why wait till now, why couldn’t he do this months ago?” Well, aside from being a very busy person, the best answer I came up with is that although there were numerous bottlenecks, Tesla was able to resolve them incrementally, and as Elon stated during the 4th Q 2017 CC,the ramp so far has been “exponential,” (although not as exponential as we TMC investors would like), it’s still moving much faster than the S/X lines (which took 5 years to get us to 2,000/ week). Hence, if M3 ramp is already at 2,000/ week in just 9 months of entering production, then I think we are at a very nice place. Previously when Elon was sleeping at the GF, I think he somewhat sized up the battery module situation and thought “we can do this, no problem.” His engineers likely thought the same, hence, the 8K was issued. So if they are in fact at 2,000/ week, then Tesla theoretically will only miss by 500/ week (that’s if you believe in the leaked email...), But this still pins Elon and his team is in a very precarious situation, how does he explain the 8k? So, to show that he is NOT taking this miss lightly (even if it’s only 500 M3/ week), Elon will be sleeping at the factory.... Now, if numbers fall between 1,200-1,400 (last 7 days burst rate) then that will not be a good thing as it shows we are much slower than anticipated and there’s another level of hell we’ll be experiencing and a capital raise is necessary so we don’t cut it too close to the edge. Might as well raise the capital this Q.

I’ll be sitting back, and watching it unfold tomorrow. At this point in time, I would still avoid options, they don’t call it a suckers bet for nothing.

He “couldn’t do it months ago,” because he was busy with Falcon Heavy.

Who wants to vote again on the comp package?
 
  • Disagree
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I guess my reaction is...

The bears already know they're going to "miss" and never believed the 2500/wk benchmark to be achievable. And the bulls won't care, because why care this time?

Tesla's Q4 miss last year was way more significant than the Q1 miss it will post tomorrow.

If the stock only oscillated 2% during the first week of January after a much larger miss, why would you expect more movement this time?

Because sentiment is super down right now
 
Really? You read Elon Musk's biography and think it's a positive thing he'd get involved in engineering? He's now CEO, head of sales, head fundraiser, corporate treasurer, and now also head of the Model 3 project? That's a "good thing" for a 40B+ public company?

Also, NOW is the time for him to get involved? Not last November? Not in January? But in the middle of a "solid ramp" (as ValueAnalyst puts it)? What are his contributions going to be, exactly? Isn't he the one who said investors should have "zero doubt" that Tesla would hit 10,000 Model 3s/week?

I find it pretty funny. I thought that Elon Musk might be able to avoid a reputation hit from Tesla's downturn, but now he's putting himself in that boat.
Yes, I've read it, have you? You've been on here since Tuesday, me? Since 2012, right before they started producing the Model S.

People said:

-Can't make an EV sports car - Roadster - CHECK.
-Can't make an EV sedan - Model S - CHECK.
-Can't make the Model S in large quantities - CHECK.
-Can't make an EV SUV - Model X - CHECK.
-Can't manufacture the Model X with falcon doors in large quantities - CHECK.

I don't know why they ****ed up on the manufacturing battery module design for the 3, I'm mad as hell as it's put me almost a year behind by the time I get it, but the company is so much bigger than what is happening right now. If you can't see that, and it seems like a lot of people can't, then YOU don't understand the transition that is happening in our society.
 
For everyone who has been visiting TMC (bulls/bears), tomorrow will be a very telling day as Tesla is scheduled to release numbers after market closes. It’s not a secret that Tesla will not meet the projected 2,500/ week M3 production number for Q1, hence the current stock price....so the short-term question remains “has it all been priced in?”

This has been on my mind for the last two weeks as I am contemplating deploying some dry powder to pick up more TSLA. I think that if Tesla produces between 1,800-2,000/ week M3 (7 days) then we will have a very good chance of a nice pop to reclaim 260s/ maybe 270s if it’s above 2,000/ week (for the last 7 days). If numbers fall between 1,500-1,800, then it would explain why Elon is back to sleeping at the factory and the stock price might decrease a bit (being that it’s so low, I don’t know if it’ll move much anymore). For bears who are spelling gloom and doom, this is not the first time Elon has decided to take matters into his own hands (he is fully capable of it, let’s not get it twisted and forget his engineering/physics background, he is also a rocket scientist..) during Model S and Model X ramp, Elon tweeted about doing just that to get Tesla to where we are at now. If he stays at the factory, then I am optimistic that he and Tesla’s engineers will figure it out (sometimes you need the head honcho present to give you that extra jolt of motivation).

The question I have been asking myself today after hearing that Elon will be sleeping at the factory again is “why wait till now, why couldn’t he do this months ago?” Well, aside from being a very busy person, the best answer I came up with is that although there were numerous bottlenecks, Tesla was able to resolve them incrementally, and as Elon stated during the 4th Q 2017 CC,the ramp so far has been “exponential,” (although not as exponential as we TMC investors would like), it’s still moving much faster than the S/X lines (which took 5 years to get us to 2,000/ week). Hence, if M3 ramp is already at 2,000/ week in just 9 months of entering production, then I think we are at a very nice place. Previously when Elon was sleeping at the GF, I think he somewhat sized up the battery module situation and thought “we can do this, no problem.” His engineers likely thought the same, hence, the 8K was issued. So if they are in fact at 2,000/ week, then Tesla theoretically will only miss by 500/ week (that’s if you believe in the leaked email...), But this still pins Elon and his team is in a very precarious situation, how does he explain the 8k? So, to show that he is NOT taking this miss lightly (even if it’s only 500 M3/ week), Elon will be sleeping at the factory.... Now, if numbers fall between 1,200-1,400 (last 7 days burst rate) then that will not be a good thing as it shows we are much slower than anticipated and there’s another level of hell we’ll be experiencing and a capital raise is necessary so we don’t cut it too close to the edge. Might as well raise the capital this Q.

I’ll be sitting back, and watching it unfold tomorrow. At this point in time, I would still avoid options, they don’t call it a suckers bet for nothing.

Great summary. I think we would be foolish to avoid history and say we can clean burst to 4K this new quarter. I think Elon's waiting until after today, to be able to say that from 3/27 THROUGH 4/2 (since in the letter he said if "all goes well today") to say that they are at the 2K production rate for the week. This does seem more stable than the 3 day burst of last quarter. Let's assume that next quarter they average 2K per week (fitting the same pattern of the last week stretch being the next quarter's average), we would actually be in great shape with 24K cars. Unless their gross margins were so bad that factoring in depreciation would leave the gross margins still negative, the Model 3 would bring cash flow from operations to around break even if Tesla restricts investments. That's a big win. The quarter after that would just be gravy.
 
We'll have to wait to gauge the customer acceptance when those concept cars are available for purchase.

One more thing about the touch-screen itself. Here in sunny SoCal, the sun beating on it inside a parked car that's already at 150 degrees (F) will challenge its survival (screen & electronics). This issue isn't as critical in cars with the screen embedded in the dash since the sun won't likely be able to hit it in the same way.

With longer days and the sun higher in the sky, summer will surely test it.

Maybe they should have tested out the touchscreen on, I don't know, one or two other car models before they used it in the 3.
 
The Saudi prince is is on a business trip to the US and will be meeting with Elon Musk while he’s here. Many are suspecting that he may invest in alternative energy to divest from oil. This might turn into a big deal.

Saudi Arabia's powerful crown prince is taking a landmark US tour, meeting with with stars from Elon Musk and Bill Gates to Oprah

This is why they put falcon wind doors on the X. It was this day that Elon had in mind. It's all finally going to pay off.
 
For everyone who has been visiting TMC (bulls/bears), tomorrow will be a very telling day as Tesla is scheduled to release numbers after market closes. It’s not a secret that Tesla will not meet the projected 2,500/ week M3 production number for Q1, hence the current stock price....so the short-term question remains “has it all been priced in?”

This has been on my mind for the last two weeks as I am contemplating deploying some dry powder to pick up more TSLA. I think that if Tesla produces between 1,800-2,000/ week M3 (7 days) then we will have a very good chance of a nice pop to reclaim 260s/ maybe 270s if it’s above 2,000/ week (for the last 7 days). If numbers fall between 1,500-1,800, then it would explain why Elon is back to sleeping at the factory and the stock price might decrease a bit (being that it’s so low, I don’t know if it’ll move much anymore). For bears who are spelling gloom and doom, this is not the first time Elon has decided to take matters into his own hands (he is fully capable of it, let’s not get it twisted and forget his engineering/physics background, he is also a rocket scientist..) during Model S and Model X ramp, Elon tweeted about doing just that to get Tesla to where we are at now. If he stays at the factory, then I am optimistic that he and Tesla’s engineers will figure it out (sometimes you need the head honcho present to give you that extra jolt of motivation).

The question I have been asking myself today after hearing that Elon will be sleeping at the factory again is “why wait till now, why couldn’t he do this months ago?” Well, aside from being a very busy person, the best answer I came up with is that although there were numerous bottlenecks, Tesla was able to resolve them incrementally, and as Elon stated during the 4th Q 2017 CC,the ramp so far has been “exponential,” (although not as exponential as we TMC investors would like), it’s still moving much faster than the S/X lines (which took 5 years to get us to 2,000/ week). Hence, if M3 ramp is already at 2,000/ week in just 9 months of entering production, then I think we are at a very nice place. Previously when Elon was sleeping at the GF, I think he somewhat sized up the battery module situation and thought “we can do this, no problem.” His engineers likely thought the same, hence, the 8K was issued. So if they are in fact at 2,000/ week, then Tesla theoretically will only miss by 500/ week (that’s if you believe in the leaked email...), But this still pins Elon and his team is in a very precarious situation, how does he explain the 8k? So, to show that he is NOT taking this miss lightly (even if it’s only 500 M3/ week), Elon will be sleeping at the factory.... Now, if numbers fall between 1,200-1,400 (last 7 days burst rate) then that will not be a good thing as it shows we are much slower than anticipated and there’s another level of hell we’ll be experiencing and a capital raise is necessary so we don’t cut it too close to the edge. Might as well raise the capital this Q.

I’ll be sitting back, and watching it unfold tomorrow. At this point in time, I would still avoid options, they don’t call it a suckers bet for nothing.
Right now, the overall bearish market is weighing pretty heavily on TSLA. I think we likely may have bottomed several days ago otherwise. Of course, there is no way to predict where this market will go day to day, so that's just a huge uncertain and very substantial factor. Sentiment continues to be incredibly negative. I'm shocked at how negative it has gotten so quickly, and how just when it seems like it can't go lower, it does. Going into this past weekend, we had a nice reversal day Friday, and things were looking a bit better. Sentiment seemed to go down even further with the recall announcement and then more info about the Model X accident. We were headed down today most likely anyway, but then the market dipped hard.

Regarding the production numbers, what will it take to move sentiment? The Bloomberg tracker is indicating 1,190 per week currently, projecting an increase to a little over 2,000 per week over the next few weeks. The leaked email from Doug indicated 200+, anticipating 300+. The supposed leaked email from Elon indicated 2,000+ per week. I think the market is probably most focused on the Bloomberg numbers. Perhaps that's the most trusted source at this point. Prior to the leaked emails, I think the market was expecting about 1,200/week. Now with the release of the emails, I don't know. We got a really nice bounce with some volume today after the email was leaked, but then the market crashed and took TSLA with it. I personally feel like that was a nice gift for shorts today. Otherwise, we very well could have been green today, essentially confirming a reversal. I think with the leaked emails, there is a broader range now that the market is seeing as possible. My guess is that the market is thinking somewhere in the range of 1,200 - 2,000. I don't think anything in the middle of this range will change sentiment much. 1,200 might drop the stock a little more. 2,000 might give it some support but probably not a dramatic change in sentiment. I think for a dramatic shift, it needs to be solidly 2,000+, the closer to 2,500 the better. I think guidance for Q2 will also be a factor. If guidance continues to be targeting 5,000/week, I don't think that will do much to reverse the negative sentiment right now. If guidance is increased, even by a few weeks, I think that would be helpful. I don't expect that at all, since I don't think 5,000/week in Q2 appears likely. Any additional guidance delay to 5,000 will almost certainly add to the negative sentiment.

The market also wants to hear that this latest burst rate is going to stick. Since it's a 7 day burst, it's much better than a few days, but I think the market will still discount it somewhat, if the emphasis is only on the past week, especially if Tesla doesn't indicate that this will be the base rate moving forward.

Musk camping out at Fremont to me is somewhat of a good sign, suggesting that the GF is now reliably ramping, and Fremont will be the next bottleneck. That should be a line optimization issue rather than a major re-design problem like what happened at the GF. Hopefully, this is forward looking towards getting to 5,000/week. Given all of the issues with the ramp, it's a good idea for Elon to spend some time there now.

All in all, I think downward risk going into the announcement is fairly low at this point with much more potential to start the process of restoring positive sentiment. I think there is a good chance Tesla will do that tomorrow, not with home run numbers, but solid numbers that demonstrate there has been substantial progress on the ramp. That's what 2000/week should do for us, shifting the focus away from missed guidance and instead on good progress with a more optimistic outlook moving forward.
 
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