Gigacapacitor?

[jerry33]

Generally it seems to me that super capacitors are considered to be an ultimate solution, however apparently the assumption is that it will take many more years to develop super caps with a sufficient wh/kg value. Perhaps a bit sooner, but still many years away, there may be Lithium-Air batteries.

And that assumes super capacitors improve at a much faster rate than batteries or that batteries never improve. Both of which seem unlikely to happen in the near future.

 

[Bob Carver]

he found a misstake in Elon cost calculation so the actually cost are $6 billion for the factory.
Obviously its secret where the other billion is coming from, he can contact Elon and tell him that it will cost $1 Billion more then he expected but not why since that is secret.

One of the stories I read mentioned that range. I'll take the over if you'll take the under.:wink:

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And that assumes super capacitors improve at a much faster rate than batteries or that batteries never improve. Both of which seem unlikely to happen in the near future.

And, there may a completely different technology that comes along and supercedes both of them. It's a mug's game to say something will never be surpassed.

 

[dsm363]

One of the stories I read mentioned that range. I'll take the over if you'll take the under.:wink:

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And, there may a completely different technology that comes along and supercedes both of them. It's a mug's game to say something will never be surpassed.

What is the point of your posts here? You said it was to stop Elon from making a $6 billion mistake. This is the wrong place to do that.

Either way, nothing you are suggesting will help Tesla get a third gen car to market in the next four years. Sure, there will eventually be something better than Li ion battlers. I don't understand why you can't wrap your mind around the fact that Tesla builds their cars and the factory to adapt. They aren't locked into any one particular battery chemistry.

 

[Norbert]

And that assumes super capacitors improve at a much faster rate than batteries or that batteries never improve. Both of which seem unlikely to happen in the near future.

Not sure what you mean exactly. I'd expect that batteries currently improve at a faster rate. The assumption is that the principle of a capacitor has inherent potential advantages over using chemical reactions (batteries), for example in cycle life (and an easily realized very high power density). This wouldn't mean that batteries can't be improved over the current state of art. Just that in theory, in terms of first principles, the capacitor appears to have a large potential, even if in practice super caps currently lack significantly in the wh/kg department.

 

[evme]

Bob, so you know Musk originally wanted to make the Model S a supercapacitor/battery hybrid. But after doing countless real world tests, they found that for the foreseeable future. Lithium Ion is better. Tesla is not married to Lithium Ion and their patent filings for Metal-Air batteries shows this. But the gigafactory is going to most likely be lithium ion. And will most likely be battery cells better than the ones used now.

I am pretty confident that Musk keeps an eye out on all new technologies. Musk is smarter than both you and me and probably most people, especially on this topic. For the technology your describing, even if it does work, it is going to take a decade or more to commercialize it. The reason why is because it has to be tested for "real world applications". Even the batteries Tesla Model S uses today are way over 5 year old technology. Because you can't just stick a new technology like a battery and hope it will be ready. For example, IBM has demonstrated Lithium-Air prototypes that work and are cheaper than Lithium Ion to manufacture. They estimate commercialization in 2020+. Then when they do come out the cost will most likely be huge until economies of scale hit in.

I will give you another example, OLED prototypes existed a decade ago and OLEDs are cheaper to make than LCDs. You can even print them on an inkjet printer. And yet how much does an OLED TV cost today after a decade? Now OLED will definitely get cheaper than LCD to manufacture but this will take time.

So when looking at development time + commercialization time + economies of scale. This lithium-ion factory will pay itself off just fine in the meantime. This won't be the last gigafactory Tesla builds and each one will utilize the latest technology available.

 

[RubberToe]

This new capacitor has been under development for the past 5 years already. And, the developers have been flying under the radar for the whole time. When it's announced, it will not be a quantum leap in the lab. It will be fully ready for volume production by the time the public hears about it.

This I am looking forward to seeing, honestly. Please provide any additional information back in this thread when more information is publicly available, or should you care to share more technical details.

If it has an 85Kw capacity and costs the same as a Model S pack, I don't think anyone here would argue that it isn't not only disruptive, but a game changer for the automotive industry. Emphasis on if....

RT

 

[jdevo2004]

I hear cold fusion is right around the corner as well. Maybe Tesla should wait for cold fusion to flesh out in a couple of years before they waste 5 billion on a dumb battery plant.

 

[TD1]

I hear cold fusion is right around the corner as well. Maybe Tesla should wait for cold fusion to flesh out in a couple of years before they waste 5 billion on a dumb battery plant.

Cold Fusion is dead on arrival

Nikola Teslas Space Energy is the thing, clearly somebody has to email Elon and tell him about space energy, its right around the corner.


This Thread has material for at least 15 Seeking Alpha articles by John Peterson.
Im looking forward for the headline "Why Cold Space Fusion Energy will make Tesla Motors obsolete"

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

You guys are silly. Just use a Mandelbrot universal coupler. No battery,cap, or fusion needed.

I'm sure Tesla 'invented' it

 

[Johan]

Just put a wind tubine on the roof, connect it to the charge port and be done with it. #driveforfree #livethedream

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

Just put a wind tubine on the roof, connect it to the charge port and be done with it. #driveforfree #livethedream

this is close to what I have heard from a 'smart' person I work with. He said 'why don't they just put a generator on the drive shaft so that you can power the car as you drive?" I asked if he was serious (he is an engineer :scared: not licensed yet) and if he understands physics? Really? I try not to talk with him anymore...

 

[TD1]

this is close to what I have heard from a 'smart' person I work with. He said 'why don't they just put a generator on the drive shaft so that you can power the car as you drive?" I asked if he was serious (he is an engineer :scared: not licensed yet) and if he understands physics? Really? I try not to talk with him anymore...

Had a similar conversation with a guy at a party, he claimed that an wind turbine on the car that would be powered from drivingwind while driving could charge the battery, and therefore the car could drive infinitely far.
He made the argument that the energy loss that occurs is just a matter of engineering, and that its more like a conspiracy that this doesn't exist and almost trivial to find the solution.

It was hard to stay serious but I explained how that goes against Newtons Law, and added that if he or somebody would "solve" that he would get Noble Price and be probably the most famous and richest man in the world. Inventing the perpetuum mobile.


The same goes for Fuel Cells fans without an engineering background, Im convinced that the layman thinks that Hydrogen Fuel means that you can just fill the car up with tapwater.
Therefore I always play the game that if I hear someone mentioning how Fuel Cell is the future, I say "yea that will be so awesome when you can just fill up the car with tapwater" 90% agree with that statement, then I tell them that this statement is unfortunately not true, and list the downsides quick, if they seem interested.

 

[palmer_md]

I'm sure everyone here has seen this in the past 5 years, but for those who are new....enjoy.

Forever Electric car ( by wind force generator) - YouTube

 

[Norbert]

this is close to what I have heard from a 'smart' person I work with. He said 'why don't they just put a generator on the drive shaft so that you can power the car as you drive?" I asked if he was serious (he is an engineer :scared: not licensed yet) and if he understands physics? Really? I try not to talk with him anymore...

Maybe he just wanted to cut short the friction loss from using wind as an intermediate. After all, the 12 V generator in ICEs works without wind, too.

 

[TD1]

I'm sure everyone here has seen this in the past 5 years, but for those who are new....enjoy.

Forever Electric car ( by wind force generator) - YouTube

reading the comments in the video :crying:

This world needs sooooo much more education.

 

[Lerxt]

Criticizing Elon for using the wrong technology or missing technology when he has build 3 amazing businesses that each are at the leading edge of tech is nothing short of bizarre.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The factory would be building lithium ion because that's the only viable tech on the map right now. As for the "promising" tech, assuming it can be built in large scale within the next 5 years seems to be very naive. At best they might have a couple of prototypes or very small volume.

We do know Tesla is keeping an eye on metal air tech and hopes to incorporate it into a "hybrid" battery, so it's not like the company is focused on lithium-ion only.

 

[dmckinstry]

If it's going to cost Tesla $200/kWh for the Li-ion batteries three years from now, and a competitor like GovernmentMotors can do it for half the price, where does that leave Tesla when their goal is hundreds of thousands of cars to be produced in six years? The batteries are the most cost component standing in the way of achieving mass market status.

Sure. Just like the oil company that bought up the nickel metal-hydride technology that could have been used in the EV1. Just because an auto company buys a technology doesn't mean they'll use it.

 

[Doug_G]

Sure. Just like the oil company that bought up the nickel metal-hydride technology that could have been used in the EV1. Just because an auto company buys a technology doesn't mean they'll use it.

It was used in the later EV1s. When GM crushed the cars, they sold the patent to Chevron so it couldn't ever be used in BEVs again. A sort of scorched earth policy.

 

[dmckinstry]

this is close to what I have heard from a 'smart' person I work with. He said 'why don't they just put a generator on the drive shaft so that you can power the car as you drive?" I asked if he was serious (he is an engineer :scared: not licensed yet) and if he understands physics? Really? I try not to talk with him anymore...

Yet another engineer who slept through the thermodynamics section of his freshman physics class.