You do have a point for the 'cream' of the sample.... should be interesting to see how it shakes out!
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Sure, they probably had something even crazier in the books before they toned it down.
Still, as even you admit, the hope that they would have ignored the temptation to go for a huge window is not without reason - it will lead to some headwind in Europe.
I'm guessing the mostly U.S. crowd in this thread do not quite grasp how limiting a sedan only offering is over here.
That said, I think Model 3 will sell just fine, as long as there is little to no competition. But sounds like it could have been a better car than it will be, which is a shame.
Now, about that I-Pace...
Just cannot get myself to take anything you say seriously as long as you keep referring to an I-pace that no one is bothered about.
Pity coz you do raise some valid points but against the backdrop of your signature I'm sorry, just does not warrant any logical reasoning brain cycles.
Why not? Jaguar I-Pace is a perfectly valid contender for someone thinking about a smaller BEV and wanting a hatchback. At 10-15% above F-Pace price (expected), it certainly sits within the optioned Model 3 framework of things.
I have a hard time getting excited about the Model 3. Audi e-tron quattro may be too big for the purpose I have in mind and Model Y sounds like late to the party. I-Pace is a definite contender for an upper-scale Model 3 audience.
But I'm the first to admit anything can happen before late 2018.
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I have put my money where my mouth is with two Teslas already. I think I have a reasonable pulse on all things Tesla. TMC included. But of course these are still, always just my opinions. (Though there is also @smac...
I hear he has even put down an I-Pace deposit.)With a limited selection of BEVs on the market or coming to the market in the near future, every one of those will generate competition out of their usual class. There is simply so little choice on the market. Similar to Model S attracting Prius owners and so forth. People will be looking outside of the immediate class.
Don't mind me feeling the I-Pace a little. We all pass our time in different ways. It is possible that come next year, something else is attracting attention. I am the first to admit these are just very early musings.
AnxietyRanger is right to be talking about I-Pace and etron. If the model 3 focusses too much on being driverless it will be ignored once people test drive an EV with the driver in mind.
Driverless is way down the line in Europe. Our politicians can't even agree on what side of the road to drive on let alone agree on legislating for an algorithm to drive amongst Italian mopeds as well as old Etonians on horses. Tesla should concentrate on the SE3Y stuff - and that's not being driven around by a robot.
Driverless is way down the line in Europe. Our politicians can't even agree on what side of the road to drive on let alone agree on legislating for an algorithm to drive amongst Italian mopeds as well as old Etonians on horses. Tesla should concentrate on the SE3Y stuff - and that's not being driven around by a robot.
If I'm buying, all I need for them to produce me one. I don't need 50 000 units.
I find it plausible that they can sell me one in within two years, yes. Not certain, but plausible.
@ohmman I've got a mod request. The title of this thread is
Elon Tweet: No 'significantly new consumer-facing technology' in Model 3
The debate between a hatch and sedan and merits of various body styles has dominated the last dozen or more pages. That has NOTHING to do with "significantly new consumer-facing technology". Would it make sense to split off into a new thread titled "Model 3: Why Sedan vs. LIftback?" or some such? Then I could elect to not subscribe to that thread.
Elon Tweet: No 'significantly new consumer-facing technology' in Model 3
The debate between a hatch and sedan and merits of various body styles has dominated the last dozen or more pages. That has NOTHING to do with "significantly new consumer-facing technology". Would it make sense to split off into a new thread titled "Model 3: Why Sedan vs. LIftback?" or some such? Then I could elect to not subscribe to that thread.
No not at all. Rumours are they have a contract with Magna to produce 17k annually.
Personally as a car buyer, I don't really car though. Like @AnxietyRanger as long as is one built for me does it matter? (Now if I was a TSLA or TTM holder it might, but that's not the case.)
If anything I'd be happy if they produced fewer. It's much nicer having something a little exclusive. (My ICE is one of < 100 examples ever sold here in the UK, and in exact spec terms is likely a singleton.)
I noticed that I-Pace didn't really have a proper car thread for it, so I made one: Jaguar I-Pace Maybe we can help by continuing the I-Pace talk more there in the future.
The sedan vs. hatchback Model 3 conversation could also use a separate thread, maybe a moderator can help split this up within the Model 3 forum.
The sedan vs. hatchback Model 3 conversation could also use a separate thread, maybe a moderator can help split this up within the Model 3 forum.
Allowing the AC system function as a heat pump doesn't take much. A reversing valve, a slight change to how the plumbing is sized / routed, another output and relay on the climate control system and a few lines of code. Unless the AC is optional it isn't adding much weight (maybe a pound). You would still need the electric heat for climates that are too cold for a heat pump. Now they could get fancy and tie the motor/inverter cooling system into it that would boost the heat output and allow it to work down to lower temps but in the summer both cab and motor will need cooling.
As someone that rides in the backseat frequently I will like the extra head room. The extra cargo capacity of a liftback doesn't help me much when I need extra cargo capacity I need a pickup or larger. Could they have made a liftback that looked good and still had headroom for the backseat? Probably but there are a lot of tradeoffs. More so when looking at large production numbers even a few extra cents for each unit adds up fast.
alseTrick
Active Member
Even given the frequency with which Europeans have been saying that on here since the initial release?
I guess it depends. If one is listening with a careful ear and is receptive to hearing, then sure. I do not know how many are. In those cases repetition does very little as it is still overridden by the personal experiences of the listener. They do hear you say the words, but do they really believe them? I don't know.
That said, lacking competition, Model 3 will do fine even in Europe. But it would have been a nicer car and an easier sell from an European perspective with a liftback. I know it might steer me towards an other alternative for the second BEV I'm planning, unless Model Y comes in time.
I have had my share of sedans (though, to be frank, I just counted and the count of sedans in my previous dozen or so new cars amounted to just two, an S4 and A8), but in something other than an Audi A8 type of car or cabriolet/roadster (not a sedan but similarly limited), where other benefits override practicality, I just can't see going back to a sedan.
Sedans are so 1980 something. And it is not just me, it is a similar thing in Europe as the American relationship with station wagons. I'm just looking outside a window to a busy road with dozens of cars and other than Mercedes Benz cars, a conservative audience for sure, 80-90% are driving hatches, station wagons or SUVs. There are many moments when I see a lot of cars and not one of them is a sedan. Not a single one.
I am not cancelling any reservations personally, just discussing the current feelings and rationales.
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alseTrick
Active Member
I think eventually Tesla should expand its offerings beyond its Part Deux plans, and for me, that would mean including a 3 hatchback (if appreciably different from the Y), among others.
That said, i think Tesla is probably going about this right by not creating to many models and variants all at once.
I'm not sure i follow your American station wagon comment though. There are very few on the roads here anymore, and when i think of them I think of the 1960s to 1980s.
Trucks and SUVs are common in the US. As are sedans. But hatchback cars (ie, non-SUVs) are relatively uncommon. Based on my commute to work, i can anecdotally say that sedans greatly outnumber hatchbacks in the Miami, easily by 5 to 1. (Heck, there may even be 5 German luxury cars on the road for every 1 hatchback.) I wonder if TMC seemingly having so many Prius and Leaf owners distorts the perception of non Americans on this site in regards to US cars.
alseTrick:
I never suggested Tesla make make many models of Model 3. My suggestion always was to make one: a Model S style hatchback.
As for station wagons, I guess you missed my point. The point was: Selling a sedan in Europe is almost like selling a station wagon in the U.S. Perhaps that thought helps put the Model 3 commentary in perspective.
I never suggested Tesla make make many models of Model 3. My suggestion always was to make one: a Model S style hatchback.
As for station wagons, I guess you missed my point. The point was: Selling a sedan in Europe is almost like selling a station wagon in the U.S. Perhaps that thought helps put the Model 3 commentary in perspective.
NeverFollow
Active Member
100 % agree! Would be more practical and versatile.
Sedan can be only used to carry people (like taxi)
Hatchback allow to carry people and various items that a typical family need to carry.
There might be a different version for other markets.
For example, Honda had a nice looking Civic hatchback in Europe, and was not available in US.
I think the new Civic is now available in US both as a sedan and as a hatchback.
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
We understand the point, just don't agree it will be significant enough to affect Tesla's strategy (given Model Y will satisfy that market).Sure, they probably had something even crazier in the books before they toned it down.
Still, as even you admit, the hope that they would have ignored the temptation to go for a huge window is not without reason - it will lead to some headwind in Europe.
I'm guessing the mostly U.S. crowd in this thread do not quite grasp how limiting a sedan only offering is over here.
That said, I think Model 3 will sell just fine, as long as there is little to no competition. But sounds like it could have been a better car than it will be, which is a shame.
Now, about that I-Pace...
In 2016, 62% of Teslas were sold in the USA (just looking at InsideEVs report). Tesla doesn't break down sales by country, so other countries are harder to tell, but it was reported 15% of revenue was from China. So roughly 75% of Tesla sales are from the USA or China. Both of these countries heavily favor the sedan body style over hatchbacks, especially for the premium market (you can easily tell just by how the premium brands rarely introduce premium hatchbacks except at the very bottom rung or converted to a crossover by adjusting ride height). So I don't have much doubt that Tesla will sell out every single Model 3 they make, until the Model Y comes out.
Crossovers on the other hand are popular everywhere (and eating into all the other body styles), so Model Y makes perfect sense. Maybe long term if the sedan style is a huge issue in Europe, Tesla can come out with a hatch variant of the Model 3, but I suspect they want Model Y to satisfy that demand.
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