Glass rear window and sedan/liftback discussion

[Sonny Daze]

If the point was that this is talking about Elon suggesting that Model 3 would have a hatchback (by comparing to Model S), I would point to the date (March 2017). That was well after when it was clear Model 3 would not be a hatchback. That quote is not from the "Elon has said from the beginning that the 3 would be a smaller version of the S." as you put it. In fact, Elon was specifically trying to dispel the myth that Model 3 would be better than (or equivalent to) Model S.

Thanks for proving my point.

January 26, 2016 StartmeupHK Venture Forum @ 11:40 mark.

“it's meant to be a slightly smaller version of the Model S”

 

[stopcrazypp]

Thanks for proving my point.

January 26, 2016 StartmeupHK Venture Forum @ 11:40 mark.

“it's meant to be a slightly smaller version of the Model S”

From same paragraph, he was consistent with the message in his latest tweets (that it will be lesser than the Model S):
"it won’t have quite as many bells and whistles."
Elon Musk wanted to name his Model 3 Model E so Tesla's brands would spell SEX. This and other secrets about his newest car

The hatchback apparently fell under that.

Full line:
[What can you tell us about the Model 3. What it's going to look like...]
(11:29) I can't tell you what it's going to look like but I can tell you some general characteristics about it: it's meant to be a smaller version of the Model S. It won't have quite as many bells and whistles but it will be at a much lower price point. The intent is to roughly cut the price in half for a smaller vehicles. I think that's probably going to be the most profound car that we make. Because that's going to be a very compelling car at an affordable price.
*sugar* Elon Says - Transcript - Elon Musk on Tesla in Hong Kong and China

And looking at the question, it was about styling. The Model 3 does have an general shape like a smaller Model S. They could have styled it as a traditional hatch like the Bolt, Leaf, i3, etc at similar price points, but didn't.

You can see some of the styling guesses for Model 3 back then in January 2016, roughly half were guessing it'll be a hatch like the Leaf:
Round up of Tesla Model 3 renderings – which one will be closest to the real thing?

 

[T34ME]

Elon has said from the beginning that the 3 would be a smaller version of the S. However, the 3 is not a smaller version of anything, it is a completely different car. If he had simply said from the beginning that the 3 would be a mid-sized sedan and left the S out of the conversation, this would never have been an issue.

I have a different view on this. In my opinion, the 3 IS a smaller version of the S. Both are "fastback" style sedans. Because of the longer length, Tesla was able to design the S with a semi-hatchback. The 3 not so, because of the shorter length it will have a comparatively large, typical trunk opening (compared to cars in its class).

 

[Sonny Daze]

From same paragraph, he was consistent with the message in his latest tweets:
"it won’t have quite as many bells and whistles."
Elon Musk wanted to name his Model 3 Model E so Tesla's brands would spell SEX. This and other secrets about his newest car

The hatchback apparently fell under that.

He was also consistent in saying that it would be a smaller version of the S. There is no disputing he said that multiple times, so I don't appreciate being called out like I don't know what I'm talking about or that I am just trying to spread FUD.

 

[Sonny Daze]

I have a different view on this. In my opinion, the 3 IS a smaller version of the S. Both are "fastback" style sedans. Because of the longer length, Tesla was able to design the S with a semi-hatchback. The 3 not so, because of the shorter length it will have a comparatively large, typical trunk opening (compared to cars in its class).

Now this is a reasonable response disagreeing with what I had said originally. Bravo!

 

[stopcrazypp]

He was also consistent in saying that it would be a smaller version of the S. There is no disputing he said that multiple times, so I don't appreciate being called out like I don't know what I'm talking about or that I am just trying to spread FUD.

Ok fine, you can stick to that point, but as relevant to the original point about the hatchback, his consistent qualifications that it'll be lesser than the Model S in features is extremely important (not just directly shrinking the car in size and keeping all the same features). It seems people just tuned out that part.

The unveiling was more than a year ago where the Model 3 was confirmed to be a sedan with a trunk. It seems people still haven't gotten over this. Are people still holding out hope Tesla will surprise with a sudden change to a hatch?

 

[slipnslider]

This is the value car compared to the S. It can't be the jack-of-all-trades wonder car, it has to make compromises. Those compromises will be a deal killer for some, them's the breaks.

You could argue the trunk design is a compromise, but the lack of driver cluster isn't. And the S has "compromises" too, like the lack of switches and buttons that can be operated without taking your eyes off the road.

 

[gregincal]

That's just the thing. It can be the jack-of-all-trades, or at least closer than it is now. These extra features really aren't that expensive or particularly difficult to implement. If a Prius can incorporate a hatch into a $12k cheaper car, so can Tesla.

A hatch is not an extra feature, it's a design choice. The Model 3 like many very popular cars does not have one. Get over it.

 

[eisbock]

You are wrong about the trunk. It is not a small opening.

So you think the BMW 3-series has the same size trunk?

It's quite clear that the 3-series has more depth into the car. The opening may be the same size from a straight-back profile, but the depth of the opening makes a huuuuge difference in practicality and overall size. Model 3 doesn't have much, if any depth into the trunk opening.

And it can't because of how far back the glass is. Just looking at a 3-series, you can see how much more trunk panel there is. The ass is longer and the window doesn't extend as far back to the end of the car. Both of these make for a larger trunk opening. Tesla isn't working any magic that somehow recoups the size lost from the design of the car.

Model 3's trunk is smaller than the competition. I'll be honest, I didn't even think this was up for debate, but here we are.

 

[alseTrick]

So you think the BMW 3-series has the same size trunk?

View attachment 226247

It's quite clear that the 3-series has more depth into the car. The opening may be the same size from a straight-back profile, but the depth of the opening makes a huuuuge difference in practicality and overall size. Model 3 doesn't have much, if any depth into the trunk opening.

And it can't because of how far back the glass is. Just looking at a 3-series, you can see how much more trunk panel there is. The ass is longer and the window doesn't extend as far back to the end of the car. Both of these make for a larger trunk opening. Tesla isn't working any magic that somehow recoups the size lost from the design of the car.

View attachment 226255

Model 3's trunk is smaller than the competition. I'll be honest, I didn't even think this was up for debate, but here we are.

Is it "too small to fit anything larger than a case of beer" or is it merely "smaller than the competition"?

Smaller than you want ≠ small.

I contend it is plenty large enough to fit the most common uses of trunks, such as groceries, luggage and minor vehicle repair/maintenance items. Nor do I think it will be a problem for anyone with a folding children's stroller.

Is it smaller than the one BMW 3 trunk pic you posted? It's honestly impossible to tell from that pic. But it seems to reason that it's probably a few inches deeper than the Tesla given their side profiles. Does that mean the Tesla 3's trunk opening is small? Nope. Does it mean it's significantly less functional than BMW's? Nope. Rarely are those ~3 inches(?) going to come into play for most owners.

I'd also like to point out that apparently the 2017 BMW 3 series has the arms hinge arms inside the trunk opening, not off to the side and out of the way like in the pic you showed. That would seem to reduce its size and functionality.

I do not believe this is a small trunk (opening):

 

[North75]

Is it "too small to fit anything larger than a case of beer" or is it merely "smaller than the competition"?

Smaller than you want ≠ small.

I contend it is plenty large enough to fit the most common uses of trunks, such as groceries, luggage and minor vehicle repair/maintenance items. Nor do I think it will be a problem for anyone with a folding children's stroller.

Is it smaller than the one BMW 3 trunk pic you posted? It's honestly impossible to tell from that pic. But it seems to reason that it's probably a few inches deeper than the Tesla given their side profiles. Does that mean the Tesla 3's trunk opening is small? Nope. Does it mean it's significantly less functional than BMW's? Nope. Rarely are those ~3 inches(?) going to come into play for most owners.

I'd also like to point out that apparently the 2017 BMW 3 series has the arms hinge arms inside the trunk opening, not off to the side and out of the way like in the pic you showed. That would seem to reduce its size and functionality.

I do not believe this is a small trunk (opening):

I agree. The BMW trunk may have a deeper top lid, but the model 3 looks like it might be taller because the trunk lid is not flat but angled up to where it meets the glass. To me it seems like the taller opening is actually more practical. Overall the sizes seem quite similar to me. Certainly not a deal breaker on the model 3 by any means.

I have an e90 3 series now and haven't had any issues with fitting things in the trunk. Overall you can jam quite a lot in there and the entire car if you need to pack the whole thing. Assuming the back seat in the model 3 folds down, I don't see it being a problem at all for most buyers.

I don't understand why those who want a hatchback are so quick to discount Tesla's reasoning of wanting to eliminate the rear cross bar and maximize rear seat headroom. I suspect the back seat would be pretty unusable if it was a hatchback like the S. I also think rear visibility would have been horrible as well. Why not trust that Tesla considered all the options and determined that the current configuration was the best option that fit with their criteria?

 

[stopcrazypp]

So you think the BMW 3-series has the same size trunk?

View attachment 226247

It's quite clear that the 3-series has more depth into the car. The opening may be the same size from a straight-back profile, but the depth of the opening makes a huuuuge difference in practicality and overall size. Model 3 doesn't have much, if any depth into the trunk opening.

And it can't because of how far back the glass is. Just looking at a 3-series, you can see how much more trunk panel there is. The ass is longer and the window doesn't extend as far back to the end of the car. Both of these make for a larger trunk opening. Tesla isn't working any magic that somehow recoups the size lost from the design of the car.

View attachment 226255

Model 3's trunk is smaller than the competition. I'll be honest, I didn't even think this was up for debate, but here we are.

I don't see how your drawings can show that the Model 3 will have a smaller trunk, as it's not possible to tell from just the pictures the depth of each trunk.

Do you mean trunk opening? Even then you need not only the depth of the opening but also the height. The Model 3 does appear to have less depth, but it may have more height, which cancels things out. Hard to tell just from pictures (will need measurements).

 

[3Victoria]

Model 3's trunk is smaller than the competition. I'll be honest, I didn't even think this was up for debate, but here we are.

Your lines seem to be rather arbitrary -- why is the BMW line at the rear of the wheel well, but the Tesla line is several inches to the rear of the wheel well?

It really doesn't seem like it should have taken Tesla this long to get to production. Its been 14 months since the first reveal and the 1st reveal hasn't really changed at all - except for small facelift and some additional cameras. What have they been doing?

You have been around here long enough to make this question rather disingenuous. You know that they have been arranging part suppliers, building an assembly line, building a battery factory, inverter line, and skateboard line. Others have criticizing them for going too fast --- if its not one thing its another.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

If only this was the 3 Series trunk we could be comparing Model 3 with... Considering the number of body style variants 3 Series has, its sedan trunk is a much smaller issue in many markets than it is for Model 3.

 

[stopcrazypp]

If only this was the 3 Series trunk we could be comparing Model 3 with... Considering the number of body style variants 3 Series has, its sedan trunk is a much smaller issue in many markets than it is for Model 3.

I'm getting deja vu on having the same conversation why the 3 series GT doesn't solve the problem (it has both negatives: it's ugly and it also compromises headroom at the same time).
Glass rear window and sedan/liftback discussion

Again, I think people wanting a hatchback should get over it and wait for the Model Y. It's a bit tiring to see so many threads dominated by this.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I'm getting deja vu on having the same conversation why the 3 series GT doesn't solve the problem (it has both negatives: it's ugly and it also compromises headroom at the same time).
Glass rear window and sedan/liftback discussion

Again, I think people wanting a hatchback should get over it and wait for the Model Y. It's a bit tiring to see so many threads dominated by this.

My point was simple: So much argument over the 3 Series trunk should be placed in context, to be fair on the 3 Series and to be, well, basically factual. In many markets it also has the Touring, a station wagon, with more headroom and even more trunk space.

The Model 3 hatchback debate I see as a different thing. But if you're talking 3 Series, the GT and the Touring (Sports Wagon for the U.S.) in many markets can not be ignored.

Model Y is years and a tech-generation away. It is no option for current conversations.

 

[stopcrazypp]

My point was simple: So much argument over the 3 Series trunk should be placed in context, to be fair on the 3 Series and to be, well, basically factual. In many markets it also has the Touring, a station wagon, with more headroom and even more trunk space.

The Model 3 hatchback debate I see as a different thing. But if you're talking 3 Series, the GT and the Touring (Sports Wagon for the U.S.) in many markets can not be ignored.

Model Y is years and a tech-generation away. It is no option for current conversations.

Well, BMW doesn't break down the sales numbers, but I'm pretty sure the 3 series GT is a horrible seller, as the rumor mill is that the GT will not live to another generation. Using the cars.com estimation method as the article for the wagon in the second link, I get 3.7%(330/8861) of 3 series in stock being the GT variant.
BMW 3 Series GT might not live to see a new generation

3 series wagon is even more insignificant in the US (article below estimates 3% are wagons). Rumor is next gen 3 series wagon is not coming to US (current gen will end production in June 2019).
The BMW 3 Series Wagon is Probably Dead: Here’s Why

The whole world market is moving towards CUVs, so hatchbacks and wagons are going to become less and less important for marketshare (even in countries that prefer them). Tesla's two largest markets (the USA and China) both prefer sedans.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@stopcrazypp Why should I as a car buyer care about sales figures, though? If we are comparing what 3 Series offers compared to Model 3, in the trunk space it offers more. That's only fair to point out. And the station wagon is an excellent seller in Europe, so regions vary. GT is a niche model, but as a buyer I'm lucky to have that choice with a 3 Series. I would love to have that choice with Model 3, but I don't.

The whole world market is moving towards CUVs, so hatchbacks and wagons are going to become less and less important for marketshare (even in countries that prefer them). Tesla's two largest markets (the USA and China) both prefer sedans.

Curious then that Tesla's biggest seller is a hatchback...

Had Tesla released Model Y instead of Model 3, though, with a hatchback/wagonish trunk, it would certainly be better than Model 3 in this regard. No argument from me there. Sadly Model Y was bumped to next generation, instead of being based on Model 3 as originally mentioned.

 

[cizUK]

Now which one's got more room here?

 

[Garlan Garner]

If only this was the 3 Series trunk we could be comparing Model 3 with... Considering the number of body style variants 3 Series has, its sedan trunk is a much smaller issue in many markets than it is for Model 3.

If all that you are talking about is the trunk...then yes, however I would not want to break up that beautiful all glass roof for a bigger trunk opening. That would be ludicrous.