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GM Chevy Volt

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I still have a hard time seeing why this is relevant.
Because many people imagine that if you stopped drilling for oil and refining gasoline there would either be lots of electricity available and/or lots of extra available fuel that could be used to generate electricity.

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Only true when the Volt is in EV mode. In CS mode the Volt burns more gas and burns it dirtier than a Prius. The Volt is better if you never run the ICE, or don't run it much. The Prius is far better on road trips.
Plus in coal heavy areas where night time charging will be all coal powered even an EV is worse on a well to wheels basis than a Prius.
 
Because many people imagine that if you stopped drilling for oil and refining gasoline there would either be lots of electricity available and/or lots of extra available fuel that could be used to generate electricity.....

Less oil drilled would mean less electricity. But it also means less oil burned to make electricity. Since only one of the other seven ways of making electricity is dirtier that burning oil, then any replacement electricity would most likely be of a cleaner kind.
 
Only true when the Volt is in EV mode. In CS mode the Volt burns more gas and burns it dirtier than a Prius. The Volt is better if you never run the ICE, or don't run it much. The Prius is far better on road trips.


Hands up all the Volt / Ampera owners on here who never use their cars for commuting, shopping and other local errands and only use them for road trips.
 
Only true when the Volt is in EV mode. In CS mode the Volt burns more gas and burns it dirtier than a Prius. The Volt is better if you never run the ICE, or don't run it much. The Prius is far better on road trips.
Sure - but is it worth owning 2 cars? After all - a Prius represents a significant amount of embodied energy.

The energy used to produce a Prius is about 20% of it's total life-cycle energy costs.

So if you take a 20% hit in fuel economy and put those miles on your Volt instead avoiding the production of a Prius, I'd guess that you basically come out as a wash.

Since road-trip miles are rarely going to be a huge part of total miles driven (and even then a decent fraction of those miles could be done in EV mode), unless you only do a LOT of 100+ mi trips, just drive the Volt - otherwise you should probably just buy a Prius and skip the Volt in the first place (I'd still opt for the plug-in Prius if possible - knocking off 10 miles of gas usage / day and fully utilizing the plug-in pack is actually the most efficient use of the battery pack - plus the bigger pack improves overall efficiency of the Prius slightly, too.
 
Since road-trip miles are rarely going to be a huge part of total miles driven (and even then a decent fraction of those miles could be done in EV mode),

Well, about 25% of the miles I put on my Prius are road trips, so any EV would be expected to do the same.

plus the bigger pack improves overall efficiency of the Prius slightly, too.

No, actually that's incorrect in most cases. When the 2004 Prius first came out six engineering types added extra battery packs to their Prius to increase the electric distance. (these were not plug-ins, just additional battery packs). Only one got improved mpg because he lived in a mountainous area and was able to store more energy from regeneration. All the rest either had reduced mpg or no change. The size of the battery makes very little difference to the Prius' efficiency.

If you drive the PiP like a Volt (use the battery until it's empty), you're almost certain to get suboptimal results. The plug-in battery should be used to compensate for the areas where the standard Prius is inefficient (short trips to the store, driveway shuffle, bad stop and go commute, etc.) The PiP is not an EV, it's a band-aid to shore up the weak points of the standard Prius. I suspect that used properly you could easily get 125 mpg in the PiP.
 
No, actually that's incorrect in most cases. When the 2004 Prius first came out six engineering types added extra battery packs to their Prius to increase the electric distance. (these were not plug-ins, just additional battery packs). Only one got improved mpg because he lived in a mountainous area and was able to store more energy from regeneration. All the rest either had reduced mpg or no change. The size of the battery makes very little difference to the Prius' efficiency.
You can't compare the results of a conversion with a factory PHEV. The main reason is that the plug-in Prius is allowed to push/pull a lot more power from the battery pack than you can with a regular hybrid, allowing the hybrid management more leeway when it comes to deciding when it's most efficient to run the engine. With a plug-in conversion, you are very limited in what you can achieve unless you have the ability to reprogram the ECU (and as far as I can tell it appears that all Prius plug-inconversions resort to CAN-bus hacking for integration).
 
You can't compare the results of a conversion with a factory PHEV. The main reason is that the plug-in Prius is allowed to push/pull a lot more power from the battery pack than you can with a regular hybrid, allowing the hybrid management more leeway when it comes to deciding when it's most efficient to run the engine. With a plug-in conversion, you are very limited in what you can achieve unless you have the ability to reprogram the ECU (and as far as I can tell it appears that all Prius plug-inconversions resort to CAN-bus hacking for integration).

I wasn't trying to compare it to the PiP. The only point was that increasing the size of the traction battery (not the plug-in battery) isn't likely to help anything. In the case I was referring to, there wasn't any CAN bus hacking. The extra batteries were just wired up in a way to make the Prius think it had a larger battery than usual.
 
Sure - but is it worth owning 2 cars? After all - a Prius represents a significant amount of embodied energy.
Most families do own two cars. The question is not "Should you own two cars?" but rather "Which two cars should they be?"

The energy used to produce a Prius is about 20% of it's total life-cycle energy costs.
That sounds like an urban myth to me. But even if it's true, see above: Most families own two cars, so that energy of manufacture is there regardless.

There are also issues of domestic vs. imported energy, balance of trade, and the terrorism tax implicit in imported oil.

Since road-trip miles are rarely going to be a huge part of total miles driven (and even then a decent fraction of those miles could be done in EV mode),...
My drive up to Canada is around 330 miles one way. Volt goes about 35 miles on electric. So about one tenth on electric, and the rest at 35 mpg compared to the Prius's 50 mpg. And the Volt in CS mode pollutes more than the Prius.

...unless you only do a LOT of 100+ mi trips, just drive the Volt - otherwise you should probably just buy a Prius and skip the Volt in the first place...
I do a lot of under-35-mile trips, but plenty of over-35 also. The Roadster lets me drive all electric almost all the time. For a two-car family, a Leaf and a Prius is a better combination than a Volt with any other car. The Volt only makes sense for a one-car household with $40,000 to spend on a car and a preponderance of short trips.

The PiP is reported to get slightly better highway MPG than the 2004 Prius, maybe because it's based on the 2010 model. But the actual savings in gas, compared to the already super-efficient 2004 Prius, would not justify trading in a perfectly good 2004.

I do not argue that the Roadster is a practical car. It's a fun car. But if you can afford it and you have it, a Volt is the worst possible choice for a car for those rare times when the Roadster won't go far enough.
 
daniel said:
That sounds like an urban myth to me.

PHEVemissions.PNG


I have a few papers that go into more detail on this, but it isn't myth.


The Volt only makes sense for a one-car household with $40,000 to spend on a car and a preponderance of short trips.

Plenty of people can afford £30k/$40k cars, the BMW 3 Series is the most popular private purchase here.

The stats are there for all to see: On both sides of the Atlantic 95% of journeys are under 25 miles. I'm affraid that you're the outlier.


UK

journeys.PNG



USA

Distance%20Distribution%20Car%20Trips.jpg
 
Volt goes ... at 35 mpg compared to the Prius's 50 mpg.

While these are the published EPA numbers, they do not reflect real world highway driving.

After my wife and I picked up our Volt in Michigan, I drove the Volt home, and she followed directly behind me in our 2005 Prius. This is as direct of a comparison as you can get. The result: Volt got 40.7 MPG, Prius got 48.1 MPG. (This was between two fill-ups with an already empty battery).

Now, the Volt was brand new. The Prius MPG improved by more than 20% over its first year as the moving parts loosened up, so I expect to see a similar improvement in the Volt, but have not had an opportunity to test it again.

The EPA test cycles are fairly short and include a lot of speed changes. For most of this, the Volt will be in serial hybrid mode, which is inefficient. However, when driving at low load (i.e. constant speed and above 70 km/h), the Volt goes into a parallel hybrid mode (aka power split mode) that is practically the same as the Prius.

This explains why real-world highway driving in the Volt is more efficient than the EPA numbers suggest, and why I think your comparison between the Volt and Prius is not fair or accurate.
 
While these are the published EPA numbers, they do not reflect real world highway driving.
But they aren't EPA highway numbers. They're numbers that daniel pulled out of nowhere.

2012 Volt is 40 mpg highway
2012 Prius is 48 mpg highway
2005 Prius is 45 mpg highway

The Volt also does 38 EV miles per the EPA w/the 2013 model now. Fuel economy numbers remain unchanged.

It is a shame that the Volt's tailpipe emissions aren't cleaner. I'd really like to see the CARB equipment made standard across the USA.

That said - the Volt avoids the vast majority of pollution in cities thanks to having 38 mi EV range. And as a Prius owner - yes, the Prius stinks just like any other car until it warms up.

Walking/running/riding on local neighborhood streets in the morning when out for exercise is a pet peeve of mine (and possibly hazardous for some people) thanks to cars driving around on cold emissions equipment leaving most of the pollution close to home instead of out on the highway where there's room for it to disperse. Plug-in hybrids like the Volt solve this problem fantastically.
 
After my wife and I picked up our Volt in Michigan, I drove the Volt home, and she followed directly behind me in our 2005 Prius. This is as direct of a comparison as you can get. The result: Volt got 40.7 MPG, Prius got 48.1 MPG. (This was between two fill-ups with an already empty battery).

Of course, the fly in the ointment here is that the Prius runs on regular gas while the Volt needs premium (unless that's changed), so the equivalent mpg is lower than stated by the difference in fuel price.
 
Of course, the fly in the ointment here is that the Prius runs on regular gas while the Volt needs premium (unless that's changed), so the equivalent mpg is lower than stated by the difference in fuel price.

This is "technically" correct, however, the volt runs fine on regular gas, and regular gas will never damage the volt. The only reason that the volt requires premium is that many volt owners hardly ever use gas, and as a result, the gas sits in their tanks for a long time. The volt attempts to mitigate this by using a pressurized stainless steel gas tank, and requiring premium gas, as it breaks down at a slower rate. If you are like me and use your ICE every day on your volt, and cycle through your tank fairly quickly, regular gas will not give you a problem.
 
Less oil drilled would mean less electricity. But it also means less oil burned to make electricity. Since only one of the other seven ways of making electricity is dirtier that burning oil, then any replacement electricity would most likely be of a cleaner kind.
I'm not following. Oil fired generation is a tiny percentage of grid power, the electricity used in petroleum refining comes from coke and NG mostly, byproducts of oil production, and they are used for refining operations. If you reduce the amount of oil being refined there would be no replacement generation required because the demand for that electricity, refining, would be gone, and the coke and NG byproducts of drilling would also be proportionally reduced. If you don't pull a barrel of oil from the ground you don't get the byproducts from that drilling operation, and you don't need to generate electricity to refine that barrel of oil that stays in the ground.

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After a recent report suggested that GM is losing nearly $49,000 a year on Volt – a calculation Lutz called “stupid” – the outspoken executive said thought someone was targeting GM and the Volt in the runup to the Nov. 6 presidential election.

“And then you wonder who would do such a thing?” Lutz said at the AutoBeat Group conference in Dearborn.
I assume that was a rhetorical question, since he knows exactly who is doing it, and why, and he's a member.