GM Chevy Volt

[dpeilow]

I believe the base retail price for the 2012 model year Leaf SV is US$36,020 and the SL is US$37,250. The 2013 Volt is US$39,995. In which case, that's a pretty cheap Versa...

We've been round the Volt / Plug-in Prius thing before as well. For the PiP to work out, the majority of your journeys need to be under 11 miles on sub-60 mph roads or over 118 miles. For everyone else the Volt works out better. Here's a graph I plotted based on the EPA stickers.

This implies that the Volt can cover around 70% of US daily driving needs in EV mode, whereas the Plug-in Prius is only at around 20%. At the other end of the scale, the PiP beats the Volt on fuel economy on only the top 5% of days.

Cumulative distribution curve for daily driven distance by cars that were used on the Travel Day (representing 61% of all cars owned by the participating households). Data source: NHTS 2009.

Having multiple vehicles is not an answer. An average vehicle represents 30k km of embedded CO2. It's more resources and it means you have all the fixed costs of running a vehicle that is sitting there for a lot of the time doing nothing.

If the Volt is niche, then going on recent sales figures, what does that make the LEAF?

I drove one and it is very nice to drive. Actually nicer to drive than the Prius.

We can agree on that.

 

[daniel]

I never considered the PiP. 12 miles of EV range, and even then limited power (or the ICE starts up if you step too hard on the pedal) is pathetic.

Most families have two cars or more. Two cars is the norm. The question is not whether a family should have two cars, but which two cars. I submit that for a two car family the Volt is the worst of both worlds. I admit that for a single person like me, having two cars (not counting the Porsche, which I've never really had, since it's been in conversion or repair for all but a month of the 4+ years I've owned it) is an extravagance. But hey, the Roadster itself is an extravagance. And there are many more reasons for driving electric than CO2 alone.

Finally, if I did own a Volt, I'd never drive it in the under-120 mile range (where it does better than the Prius) because I'd be driving the Roadster. If I had a Leaf, a Volt, and a Prius, the Volt would only be used for trips between 75 miles and 120 miles. For my driving, the Volt is never the best choice of the three. So a Leaf and a Prius is far better than a Volt. Again, I'm extravagant in owning two cars, but most families need two cars, so even if they owned a Volt, they'd still need another car. Better to have a Leaf and a Prius, or a Model S and a Prius, than a Volt and another car.

For a one-car household that often drives in the Volt's "sweet range" and can afford the extravagant price tag, the Volt is a good choice, if it turns out to be more reliable than most GM cars are.

 

[jerry33]

I never considered the PiP. 12 miles of EV range, and even then limited power (or the ICE starts up if you step too hard on the pedal) is pathetic.

I think a lot of people miss the point of the PiP. It's not an EV by any stretch of the imagination. Driving it like a Volt (e.g. use battery until empty) is going to lead to sub-optimal results.

In my opinion, the PiP is designed to address the shortcomings of the standard Prius:

1. When doing the driveway shuffle the engine comes in seven seconds on wasting gas. In some Prius, the EV button can defeat this, but it's easier to do with the PiP.

2. On short trips to the store the engine never gets warmed up reducing mpg big time. The PiP wouldn't run the engine at all in this case.

3. In a bad stop-and-go commute (one that's 20-40 minutes) the engine comes on just to charge the battery (this happens after ten to fifteen minutes on nice days and five to ten minutes on hot days). My expectation is that the PiP can increase this time to an hour before the gas engine starts running just to charge the battery.

4. On short steep hills you can waste a lot of gas going up. Using battery power for this can really help conserve fuel.

In the PiP judicious use of the plug-in batteries can reduce the most wasteful parts of the gas engine operation resulting in the gas engine running in the most efficient range far more than in the standard Prius.

Whether the PiP suits your needs, depends on how many of the four items you frequently encounter. Myself, I don't want any ICE in a future car so neither the PiP nor Volt are going to be on my short list. However, the PiP is not pathetic, it's just not an EV and shouldn't be looked upon as one--It's just a very efficient ICE car with enough room that a family could find it useful (The Volt is kind of impractical for any family).

 

[dpeilow]

(The Volt is kind of impractical for any family).

I believe the average family here has 1.8 kids, so not sure why the Volt is impractical?

 

[jerry33]

I believe the average family here has 1.8 kids, so not sure why the Volt is impractical?

The lack of a full back seat to put the various items that the 1.8 kids need, and the tiny trunk.

 

[dpeilow]

However, the PiP is not pathetic, it's just not an EV and shouldn't be looked upon as one--It's just a very efficient ICE car with enough room that a family could find it useful

I wish I'd taken a photo of it now, given that this is another regular myth, but on the first trip that a colleague and I took in the Ampera, I had two full size wheeled suitcases, 4 19" rackmount satellite modems, 2 Cisco routers, 2 laptops, a 2 x 2 x 1ft box of cables, a small rucksack and a spectrum analyser. On top of this were my two charging cords and an extension cord. Not only did it all fit in, but I could still get the privacy cover on.

 

[brianman]

a small rucksack

This marks the second time in my life I've heard this word used (beyond people quoting the first time).

I'm sure TEG will find the video. Here's another clue:
Ophelia (Character)

 

[daniel]

I think a lot of people miss the point of the PiP. It's not an EV by any stretch of the imagination. Driving it like a Volt (e.g. use battery until empty) is going to lead to sub-optimal results.

In my opinion, the PiP is designed to address the shortcomings of the standard Prius:

1. When doing the driveway shuffle the engine comes in seven seconds on wasting gas. In some Prius, the EV button can defeat this, but it's easier to do with the PiP.

2. On short trips to the store the engine never gets warmed up reducing mpg big time. The PiP wouldn't run the engine at all in this case.

3. In a bad stop-and-go commute (one that's 20-40 minutes) the engine comes on just to charge the battery (this happens after ten to fifteen minutes on nice days and five to ten minutes on hot days). My expectation is that the PiP can increase this time to an hour before the gas engine starts running just to charge the battery.

4. On short steep hills you can waste a lot of gas going up. Using battery power for this can really help conserve fuel.

In the PiP judicious use of the plug-in batteries can reduce the most wasteful parts of the gas engine operation resulting in the gas engine running in the most efficient range far more than in the standard Prius.

Whether the PiP suits your needs, depends on how many of the four items you frequently encounter. Myself, I don't want any ICE in a future car so neither the PiP nor Volt are going to be on my short list. However, the PiP is not pathetic, it's just not an EV and shouldn't be looked upon as one--It's just a very efficient ICE car with enough room that a family could find it useful (The Volt is kind of impractical for any family).

1. I installed the Coastal EV switch on my 2004 Prius as soon as it came out. Driveway shuffle is now as easy as a pull on the c/c stalk.

2. This is when I use the EV. Actually, any trip under 200 miles I use the EV. Formerly, trips under 30 miles. Again, a one-car family can make good use of the PiP's short EV range, but most families have 2 cars. And even that short trip to the store, the PiP will start the ICE if you have to accelerate hard, and then it will run it until it's warm.

3. Again, this is where an EV shines.

4. I disagree: Unless your trip is short enough that you can make it on EV alone, high power demand situations are the least desirable time to make use of limited battery capacity. If the trip is long enough that the ICE will run, it's better to use the battery when power demand is lower. And of course, if that hill is steep and you don't want to crawl up it, the PiP will start the ICE anyway.

You are correct that the PiP is not pathetic. I apologize for that misstatement. What I really meant was that the amount of benefit of a PiP over the regular Prius is pathetic. As you correctly point out, the PiP is not an EV and is not intended to be an EV. Its one advantage is for slow-speed, low-acceleration trips under 12 miles, the ICE can remain off, reducing wear and tear, and eliminating that inefficient first 5 minutes. But the cost of trading up from my 2004 is far too much for that small benefit. Again, I accomplish the same thing by driving an EV for those shorter trips (as well as nearly all my driving). And anyway, with the regular Prius there is very little wear on the engine during start-up, and even though the mpg is very poor during those first 5 minutes, the actual amount of gas burned is very small. So the PiP benefit is more feel-good than actual savings.

Up until about 2007 I said I'd trade in my Prius for the next major model revision. Then I got the Xebra and could drive 40 miles on electric (30 miles being kind to the batteries). The 2010 Prius had too little improvement to be called a "major" model revision. And the PiP also offered too little to tempt me since by then there were real EVs available.

 

[Doug_G]

Leaf versus Volt

Leaf versus Volt (and Tesla for comparison): 65 km/h - thestar.com

 

[jerry33]

The 2010 Prius had too little improvement to be called a "major" model revision. And the PiP also offered too little to tempt me since by then there were real EVs available.

I agree with that. Toyota did the typical marketing "the next model has to be bigger and with more feeping creatures then the previous model"--very disappointing. I think they would have done better to really increase MPG.

 

[daniel]

I agree with that. Toyota did the typical marketing "the next model has to be bigger and with more feeping creatures then the previous model"--very disappointing. I think they would have done better to really increase MPG.

Also, making it bigger (2010) was a big turn-off for me. The Model S is also way too big for me. But I figure that's the market they're going for. A depressingly large number of Americans can't fit in a small car. I've had people decline an offer of a ride in the Roadster because, frankly, there's no way they'd have been able to get in and out of it.

One of the things I loved about the Zap Xebra was the small size. Four-door sedan, but about the size of a VW Bug, and with its single front wheel, it turned on a dime. Parallel parking was no problem at all.

 

[Rifleman]

Well, after I finished mourning the cancellation of my Model S order yesterday, I went out the the Chevy dealer, and ended up driving home a 2012 Volt. It looks like I will be driving electric 75% of the time for the next 36 month. My current plan is the lease the volt for three years, and to try to be first in line for Gen III when it comes out. I will be sure to post in here to share my experiences with the Volt. 12 Hours into ownership, I am already experiencing the thrill of EV driving. I left the dealer with 16 miles charge remaining, and had a 17 mile drive home. Using some EV driving methods I head about on this forum, I was able to pull into my driveway with 3 miles range remaining.

 

[mpt]

Rifleman; when you're driving on electric, you're driving electric! Welcome to the club!

 

[GSP]

Yes, welcome Rifleman. I suspect you will thoughly enjoy driving electric, as I have been for the past 18 months with my Volt.

You probably will find ways to increase your estimated 75% electric also. I have been taking shorter, slower, routes to increase range. This also allows more time in my Volt, a double payoff. :smile: Also, more public J1772 charging stations have been popping up, and I also ask to use 120v outlets to get a few extra miles.

I also want to thank mpt for warmly welcoming a fellow EV enthusiast, even though he doesn't own a pure BEV yet.

GSP

 

[wycolo]

> Leaf versus Volt (and Tesla for comparison): 65 km/h - thestar.com [Doug_G]

Nice practical review. If the Volt actually out-slalomed the Tesla, that would have made an interesting video. Alberta must have dirty coal fired plants for reviewer to equate CO2 production from EV vs ICE.

Concept reviewers never mention: that EVs are running on the KWHs that would be needed to produce the equivalent liquid fuel were they ICEs (even a bit less). I believe I saw interview where Harrison Ford stated this, but can't find it. Could be in Revenge of EV; it is not in the Xtras on that DVD.

To restate: Forgetting all other inputs to the 'marginal gallon of gasoline', the KWHs consumed in producing that gallon can propell an EV further than a similar ICE can travel burning that gallon.

Can't find such a statement on TMC either. Perhaps someone else can find it.
--

 

[dpeilow]

Leaf versus Volt (and Tesla for comparison): 65 km/h - thestar.com

Some silliness in this review but it does vindicate what I have previously said - that the Volt/Ampera is a good handling car that in hard driving is only let down by its tyres, something I will look to change next time they wear out.


There's certainly nowhere in the US where the grid is dirty enough for a Volt to out-CO2 a Prius. I guess that applies to Canada too.

 

[ChrisC]

Saw this thread mentioned elsewhere here at TMC, and thought I'd contribute this, if you guys aren't already aware.

Over here at GM-Volt.com is the Volt FAQ that I maintain. I started it in December 2010 as I was obsessing about my imminent delivery, which I took just days before Christmas that year. My Volt was in the first batch of 300 or so that they got out of the factory.

I also have my own personal website, which is really just a reference page that I can point people to when they ask about the car. Some of you Volt owners may find the 2-page (one sheet double sided) PDF useful for carrying in your car, to hand out when someone shows a lot of interest.

http://www.firstvoltingeorgia.com/

I'm now 21 months into my Volt, and every minute of it has been in Sport mode and "L"

(well, some of it in Mountain mode ...)

 

[JRP3]

Concept reviewers never mention: that EVs are running on the KWHs that would be needed to produce the equivalent liquid fuel were they ICEs (even a bit less). I believe I saw interview where Harrison Ford stated this, but can't find it. Could be in Revenge of EV; it is not in the Xtras on that DVD.

To restate: Forgetting all other inputs to the 'marginal gallon of gasoline', the KWHs consumed in producing that gallon can propell an EV further than a similar ICE can travel burning that gallon.

--

Unfortunately that's not true. We have gone over this in various threads but the quick and dirty is electricity is only a small portion of the energy used to create gasoline. Each gallon takes around 6-7kWh's of equivalent energy input to create, but it's not electricity. Even if you convert that 6-7 kWh's of energy into electricity there would be conversion loses and you might end up with 2-3kWh's of electricity. Also much of the energy input for reforming comes from oil production by products, which would not be available otherwise.

 

[daniel]

There's certainly nowhere in the US where the grid is dirty enough for a Volt to out-CO2 a Prius.

Only true when the Volt is in EV mode. In CS mode the Volt burns more gas and burns it dirtier than a Prius. The Volt is better if you never run the ICE, or don't run it much. The Prius is far better on road trips.

 

[vfx]

...Also much of the energy input for reforming comes from oil production by products, which would not be available otherwise.

I still have a hard time seeing why this is relevant.