GM Chevy Volt

[Bangor Bob]

Hopefully by the time the 3rd-Gen is due to start being built, battery prices will be low enough that they can stuff in 300 miles-ish of range and ditch the ICE entirely. The ICE really is the worst part of the car, especially what it does to throttle response when the ICE is running and you wait for the transmission to change modes after stepping on the go pedal.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The Volt is a good car to tide you over while affordable long range BEVs are still being developed. I think the first gen made less impact than it could have because of the price. The 2nd gen is a lot better in that respect (esp. given the much higher AER), but GM's insistence on a T-shaped battery still compromised the car. I hope 3rd gen they ditch the T-shaped battery and has a real back seat.

Despite my support of BEVs, I don't think they should discontinue it completely. There are still going to be people who want to travel on long trips quicker than quick charging can support. I think PHEVs will still play a long term role, but a reduced one.

 

[Drucifer]

Superchargers still aren't everywhere...yet. If you live out west, they might not be everywhere you need to go for quite some time. The Volt has fuel flexibility that exceeds anything that isn't a VIA truck.

GM is ditching the ICE in a car. It is called the Bolt, and will have a 200 mile range and be out before Model 3. Alas, the charging network may stink if you aren't on the west coast.

 

[JeffS]

Well, unbelievable is a stretch. Gen 2's trans has gone more Prius-like to make it more flexible for use in HEVs and PHEVs. Add 3 clutches to the Prius trans and I'm sure it would have been able to handle higher EV speeds. (I'm not saying clutch = problem, which is olde-worlde thinking).

This is a site for people interested in a company that makes long-distance BEVs.

The Volt is definitely not the perfect car. ERDTT is just one example of a limitation. But the fundamental problems are that:
- It can never reach cost parity with ICEVs
- Unless PHEVs can cover about 95% of all household miles on electricity, they can't be sustainable. The Volt Gen 2 will not be 95% electric on average.

A lot of that is stated as fact, and I have no idea where the facts come from.
Personally, in my immediate family, we have 3. Just throwing that out there for perspective.

"it can never reach cost parity with ICEV's"? First, what's an ICEV? If you mean ICE like I think you mean, how is that factual? What's the basis of that?
"unless PHEV's can cover 95% of household miles on electricity...not sustainable" ?? What? Why not? If they are 80% electric, that's 80 of 100 miles with no gas. How is that not awesome???

I don't much care how many clutches there are. Nor am I concerned with how much like Prius a Volt is. I don't even care about the T shaped battery.
(worth noting...as a challenge to a naysayer about how big a deal-breaker it is that the Gen1 Volt only seats 4... This naysayer and I spent some time on a freeway overpass on a Saturday morning watching traffic go by. $20 on the line - the challenge was, which of us could get closer to the the number of actual cars carrying 5 passengers, excluding minivans. I bet 3. Friend bet 10. Time allotted was 20 minutes. In the first 15 (we gave up at that point), we saw zero. Exactly zero cars actually using the middle seat in the tremendously more capable 5 seat cars).

A Prius uses a bit more than 1/2 the gas of a 20th century ICE car that gets 28MPG.
A Volt uses a bit less than 1/5th the gas of a 20th century ICE car that gets 28MPG.
A BEV uses infintely less gas, but in about 90% of the cases, has to be supplemented with a gas car for long distance travel. Requiring either a rental or a 2nd vehicle. So the idea that a BEV is better than a PHEV is only valid in small percentage of the time. For the vast majority of owners, they use an ICE too, when the battery won't get them where they need to go. It is what it is.

I still maintain the Volt is one of (if not THE) best answer to our world's dependence on petroleum as a fuel source. I too am a huge advocate of the electrification of personal transportation. And I put my money where my ideology is (obviously).

Regarding the comment that this is a site about a company that makes long range BEV's - really? This is a thread on that site about Volts. I don't think I'm out of bounds in this thread talking about Volts.

 

[Drucifer]

I still maintain the Volt is one of (if not THE) best answer to our world's dependence on petroleum as a fuel source. I too am a huge advocate of the electrification of personal transportation. And I put my money where my ideology is (obviously).

Regarding the comment that this is a site about a company that makes long range BEV's - really? This is a thread on that site about Volts. I don't think I'm out of bounds in this thread talking about Volts.

I am totally with you on this.

I went from 450 gallons of gas/year in a Saab to 10 gallons/year in a Volt to 0 gallons/year in the Tesla Model S.

The 450 -> 10 is where I did my part to save the planet. The 10 -> 1 is a rounding error - and since the Tesla goes about 3 mi/kWh instead of 4 mi/kWh like the Volt, I would argue that the Tesla is no better since instead of using 10 gallons of gas a year I use another 400 kWh or so - pretty much a push.

HERE IS THE THING -

It is very difficult for people who paid $100k for a car to accept that a Chevy Volt can be a brilliant solution. It is also difficult for some people to accept that the Volt even made some better engineering choices than Tesla did. Of course, the Volt is also made by a company that has made cars for 100 years, so there is that. Not that I don't love my Tesla, but the Tesla Model S is not a transportation solution that most people could afford TODAY - and it isn't made by sinless angels using pixie dust - that is the Tesla Model S isn't perfect...it is just merely awesome.

 

[dsm363]

A lot of that is stated as fact, and I have no idea where the facts come from.
Personally, in my immediate family, we have 3. Just throwing that out there for perspective.

"it can never reach cost parity with ICEV's"? First, what's an ICEV? If you mean ICE like I think you mean, how is that factual? What's the basis of that?
"unless PHEV's can cover 95% of household miles on electricity...not sustainable" ?? What? Why not? If they are 80% electric, that's 80 of 100 miles with no gas. How is that not awesome???

I don't much care how many clutches there are. Nor am I concerned with how much like Prius a Volt is. I don't even care about the T shaped battery.
(worth noting...as a challenge to a naysayer about how big a deal-breaker it is that the Gen1 Volt only seats 4... This naysayer and I spent some time on a freeway overpass on a Saturday morning watching traffic go by. $20 on the line - the challenge was, which of us could get closer to the the number of actual cars carrying 5 passengers, excluding minivans. I bet 3. Friend bet 10. Time allotted was 20 minutes. In the first 15 (we gave up at that point), we saw zero. Exactly zero cars actually using the middle seat in the tremendously more capable 5 seat cars).

A Prius uses a bit more than 1/2 the gas of a 20th century ICE car that gets 28MPG.
A Volt uses a bit less than 1/5th the gas of a 20th century ICE car that gets 28MPG.
A BEV uses infintely less gas, but in about 90% of the cases, has to be supplemented with a gas car for long distance travel. Requiring either a rental or a 2nd vehicle. So the idea that a BEV is better than a PHEV is only valid in small percentage of the time. For the vast majority of owners, they use an ICE too, when the battery won't get them where they need to go. It is what it is.

I still maintain the Volt is one of (if not THE) best answer to our world's dependence on petroleum as a fuel source. I too am a huge advocate of the electrification of personal transportation. And I put my money where my ideology is (obviously).

Regarding the comment that this is a site about a company that makes long range BEV's - really? This is a thread on that site about Volts. I don't think I'm out of bounds in this thread talking about Volts.

You say his is basically making up his facts. Where did you get the "90% of the cases, has to be supplemented with a gas car for long distance travel. "?

If the Volt is the best answer to the world's dependence of oil why would a BEV not be even better? The Volt is a good car and I'm glad you like it but some people prefer to ditch the ICE altogether. Sure that isn't possible or practical for everyone but it works for a bunch of people.

 

[dsm363]

I am totally with you on this.

I went from 450 gallons of gas/year in a Saab to 10 gallons/year in a Volt to 0 gallons/year in the Tesla Model S.

The 450 -> 10 is where I did my part to save the planet. The 10 -> 1 is a rounding error - and since the Tesla goes about 3 mi/kWh instead of 4 mi/kWh like the Volt, I would argue that the Tesla is no better since instead of using 10 gallons of gas a year I use another 250 kWh or so - pretty much a push.

HERE IS THE THING -

It is very difficult for people who paid $100k for a car to accept that a Chevy Volt can be a brilliant solution. It is also difficult for some people to accept that the Volt even made some better engineering choices than Tesla did. Of course, the Volt is also made by a company that has made cars for 100 years, so there is that. Not that I don't love my Tesla, but the Tesla Model S is not a transportation solution that most people could afford TODAY - and it isn't made by sinless angels using pixie dust - that is the Tesla Model S isn't perfect...it is just merely awesome.

What better engineering choices did they make? I don't think anyone here doubts for the money the Volt is a good solution just that it is a short term solution to the goal of getting off oil for personal transportation completely. That is the long term goal.

 

[scaesare]

I am totally with you on this.

I went from 450 gallons of gas/year in a Saab to 10 gallons/year in a Volt to 0 gallons/year in the Tesla Model S.

The 450 -> 10 is where I did my part to save the planet. The 10 -> 1 is a rounding error - and since the Tesla goes about 3 mi/kWh instead of 4 mi/kWh like the Volt, I would argue that the Tesla is no better since instead of using 10 gallons of gas a year I use another 250 kWh or so - pretty much a push.

HERE IS THE THING -

It is very difficult for people who paid $100k for a car to accept that a Chevy Volt can be a brilliant solution. It is also difficult for some people to accept that the Volt even made some better engineering choices than Tesla did. Of course, the Volt is also made by a company that has made cars for 100 years, so there is that. Not that I don't love my Tesla, but the Tesla Model S is not a transportation solution that most people could afford TODAY - and it isn't made by sinless angels using pixie dust - that is the Tesla Model S isn't perfect...it is just merely awesome.

The Volt is a good platform no doubt. It's probably the best hybrid out there.

I'd hesitate to say that it's comprised of "better engineering choices", and then follow that up with a supporting statement that "he Tesla Model S is not a transportation solution that most people could afford TODAY". That appears to conflate two rather separate issues.

All development projects are the result of tradeoffs for design goals... purpose of the product being one of them, cost being another. Then there's a boatload of engineering, logistics, and other factors...

The reality is that Tesla and Chevy made different sets of design choices for the platforms, but then again they had different goals for the products as well. To say that a $100K EV was poorly designed because it doesn't go 350 miles using gasoline is just as incorrect as saying the $35K Volt was poorly designed because it can't go 250 miles on electricity. Apples and hand-grenades.

Is a Volt a better engineered solution than a Prius? Likely, given they have similar goals. Is a Tesla a better design than a Leaf? Maybe... but they have some very different goals, price being a significant one.

 

[liuping]

- Unless PHEVs can cover about 95% of all household miles on electricity, they can't be sustainable. The Volt Gen 2 will not be 95% electric on average.

I'm not sure where the 95% EV number comes from, but looking at it another way, if a BEV cannot cover 100% of the households miles, it will not be purchased (or will only be purchased with an ICE can as backup) and everyone is worse off.

As for as achieving 95% EV, many people will be able to do that. We averaged 89% EV in our 2013 Volt, and that was with the old 38 mile range. With then new 50 mile range I think we would have been very close too or even over the 95% mark.

 

[Drucifer]

A few things where the Volt did better than Tesla.

1. Lighter vehicle does 4 miles / kWh instead of 3 miles / kWh. Of course, having 149hp is different than having 416hp
2. HVAC works much better without having to hunt for a temp (may be fixed by v7)
3. TPMS displays all 4 tires (some newer MS does finally, with ver. 7 - mine doesn't)
4. Vampire drain - Volt doesn't - Tesla has improved here.
5. Parking and Driving - midsized - can fit in spaces the TMS can't - also much less likely to curb rims (Model 3 will be better here)
6. Options - you can go from no options to EVERY option for $5k. Your $5k gets you leather, navigation, sound upgrade, rims, sensors/safety, metallic paint - without a huge costs for each / aggregate cost.
7. Green Ball - you get instant feedback regarding efficiency of your use of accelerator and braking - Tesla give you the kW meter, (as does Volt), but that isn't really the same thing.
8. Cupholders/Door pockets - has 'em

Am I giving up my Tesla for a Volt? - no - there are a lot of things that Tesla is more awesome at (acceleration/handling, Pano, touch screen, o-t-a upgrades, Supercharger, acceleration, Power Seats, 7 seats, frunk, did I mention acceleration?)

I also averaged about 90% EV in the Volt over 3 years (used about 25 gallons of gas over 3 years)

 

[JeffS]

I am totally with you on this.

I went from 450 gallons of gas/year in a Saab to 10 gallons/year in a Volt to 0 gallons/year in the Tesla Model S.

I made the same move. 2007 Saab 9-3 ARC to a 2013 Volt.
At 20,000 miles per year, I was burning 830 gallons per year. That dropped to about 100. Factual. Empirical. Inarguable even if reposters like to just argue for the sake of arguing. My change to a Tesla saves the planet 100 gallons per year. My Volt saved the planet 730 gallons.

My oldest son traded up to a Volt from a Mitsubishi Galant. That was another 500 gallons. My younger son traded up from a beater with a heater, taking another 600 gallons per year off line. My beautiful bride idled her Expedition Eddie Bauer to drive a Volt - taking yet another 1,100 gallons of gasoline per year off line. We still have the Expedition as we need it to tow our boat in the summer. But day to day, it just sits there looking sad.

In my family of 4 adults, the Volt took 3,000 gallons per year away from the demand-curve. My little immediate family - 3,000 gallons per year. Think about that. My Volt was (all numbers after tax incentives, or purchased used) $30,000. My bride's Volt was $19,500 new as a 2014 new old stock hold-over deal. Both of my sons paid $16,000 for their used Volts. Add that all up and all 4 cars cost $81,500. That's about what a new basic 85 reasonably optioned costs, after federal tax credit. All 4 Volts. One pretty basic Tesla. In order for one pretty basic Tesla to take 3,000 gallons off line, it would have to travel 75,000 miles per year replacing a gas car that got 25mpg.

Being a BEV fan is OK.
Being a BEV purist and sneering at PHEV's that serve a HUGE purpose in this transition stage just because...purist...is not ok.

Being a reindeer is ok.
Bullying another reindeer because he has a shiny red nose is not ok.

 

[dsm363]

I made the same move. 2007 Saab 9-3 ARC to a 2013 Volt.
At 20,000 miles per year, I was burning 830 gallons per year. That dropped to about 100. Factual. Empirical. Inarguable even if reposters like to just argue for the sake of arguing. My change to a Tesla saves the planet 100 gallons per year. My Volt saved the planet 730 gallons.

My oldest son traded up to a Volt from a Mitsubishi Galant. That was another 500 gallons. My younger son traded up from a beater with a heater, taking another 600 gallons per year off line. My beautiful bride idled her Expedition Eddie Bauer to drive a Volt - taking yet another 1,100 gallons of gasoline per year off line. We still have the Expedition as we need it to tow our boat in the summer. But day to day, it just sits there looking sad.

In my family of 4 adults, the Volt took 3,000 gallons per year away from the demand-curve. My little immediate family - 3,000 gallons per year. Think about that. My Volt was (all numbers after tax incentives, or purchased used) $30,000. My bride's Volt was $19,500 new as a 2014 new old stock hold-over deal. Both of my sons paid $16,000 for their used Volts. Add that all up and all 4 cars cost $81,500. That's about what a new basic 85 reasonably optioned costs, after federal tax credit. All 4 Volts. One pretty basic Tesla. In order for one pretty basic Tesla to take 3,000 gallons off line, it would have to travel 75,000 miles per year replacing a gas car that got 25mpg.

Being a BEV fan is OK.
Being a BEV purist and sneering at PHEV's that serve a HUGE purpose in this transition stage just because...purist...is not ok.

Being a reindeer is ok.
Bullying another reindeer because he has a shiny red nose is not ok.

Who is sneering? Just because some think going BEV in the long term is the right way to go doesn't mean they are upset or look down at those who enjoy their Volt. The Volt is a very good car and the right choice for many people at this time. It won't always be necessary to lug around an ICE for backup even if it is now for many.

 

[JeffS]

Not sold in all states == not a real car.

Among other comments in this 188 page thread.

 

[dsm363]

Among other comments in this 188 page thread.

Well that's a dig a Chevy, not Volt owners. You could say the same thing for other compliance cars. The new Volt will make it to all 50 states. Not really sneering.

 

[JRP3]

A few things where the Volt did better than Tesla.

1. Lighter vehicle does 4 miles / kWh instead of 3 miles / kWh. Of course, having 149hp is different than having 416hp

Targeting a different vehicle segment isn't "better", it's different.

5. Parking and Driving - midsized - can fit in spaces the TMS can't - also much less likely to curb rims (Model 3 will be better here)
6. Options - you can go from no options to EVERY option for $5k. Your $5k gets you leather, navigation, sound upgrade, rims, sensors/safety, metallic paint - without a huge costs for each / aggregate cost.

Same as above.

 

[Drucifer]

I can't quite put my finger on it, but it's like there is almost this desperate need to not allow a positive comment pass about the Chevy Volt without somehow disagreeing with it, refuting it or "ruling it" out as non-pertinent.

For instance, say I said "The Tesla Model S is bigger than the Volt allowing you to carry more passengers and cargo" - then everyone would say "Yes, that is a positive feature of the Tesla Model S versus the Chevy Volt"

BUT

When I say "The Chevy Volt is a lighter weight vehicle that goes further on the same amount of kWh" or say "The Chevy Volt is a midsized/compact car that fits into smaller parking spaces" - I get "the Volt is in a different vehicle segment, so it is different, not better"

WELL

It is better at the specific thing I was discussing, which is parking and not curbing rims. Yes, of course the Volt is a different segment. That doesn't change the fact that the Volt is better at these particular things. Why does everyone feel they need to put down the Volt. Just because the Volt is good doesn't somehow make the Tesla Model S or Model X "less good".

Keep in mind that I turned in my Volt off lease and bought a Model S. I have thousands of miles in both vehicles along with maintenance and ownership experience dealing with sales folks and service centers. I have given a lot of thought to what I drive and why I drive it. The Tesla Model S is an *AMAZING* car. The Volt, at it's insanely low price point, is bordering on miraculous as far as being an engineering achievement - well ahead of Leaf or even BMW i3 as far as reliability, battery protection and ICE integration goes. The Cadillac ELR is less so (and not even close to being a match to TMS) because, face it, it is easier to put together a compelling car with $75k than it is with $35k.

 

[dsm363]

A Miata is better car using that metric. At the same time so is a Suburban.

 

[JRP3]

I can't quite put my finger on it, but it's like there is almost this desperate need to not allow a positive comment pass about the Chevy Volt without somehow disagreeing with it, refuting it or "ruling it" out as non-pertinent.

There seems to be an almost desperate need of some Volt owners to make the car "better" in some ways than it really is. Since I'm neither a Tesla owner nor a Volt owner I'm actually neutral in this "debate", and I definitely have seen a recurring theme of "Volt apologists" over the years. Outside of the EV/hybrid world vehicles in completely different market segments are rarely compared. Is any car that is smaller than another car a superior design? If you want a smaller vehicle, then it is, if you want a larger vehicle, then it's not.

 

[JeffS]

Since I'm neither a Tesla owner nor a Volt owner I'm actually neutral in this "debate"...

That doesn't make you neutral.
You have zero experience with either, and you are somehow challenging the people who have experience with both?

 

[JRP3]

I'm challenging the claim that deciding to build a smaller vehicle was "better engineering".