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GM just adopted NACS 🤯🤯🤯

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A corded adapter? Well, that would just be weird.


They would just need enough length to reach, but the main problem is cost and likely charging restrictions.

So Tesla being Tesla I think they'll just provider a simple adapter and accept that drivers will be taking up more spots in some locations.
V4 will provide more flexibility on the charge port location.
 
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Do we know fersher that there are older Teslas that will never work with CCS based NACS chargers like Tritium announced? I get that 2012 Teslas didn't envision using a CCS adapter, but I assume that if you look under Additional Info it will say if it's CCS compatible and you could in theory use the same CCS ECU that they have been retrofitting cars with in the EU since their CCS decision. Meaning no one could accuse Tesla of abandoning old Teslas, other than taking forever to do that retrofit. I did my own on my 2018 TM3 and I have friends who have been waiting two years so far for Tesla to do theirs. I also purchased my adapter from Korea when it first came out and someone reverse engineered the wiring harness.
As far as I can tell any Tesla (except the OG Roadster of course) can get the CCS ECU upgrade, though it is not offered yet for the 3/Y unless you DIY it like you did.
 
How nice that our tax $$$ will be used to build infrastructure for foreign cars instead of American made that has now standardized on NACS.
I know victimhood is very enticing here, but please understand a few things:

1) When this legislation was written/passed CCS was the logical choice. It is a 'standard' so not controlled by one manufacturer, had broad support from various stakeholders, and can theoretically be implemented by anybody who pays for access to the standards documents. You can argue it is a bad standard because it is needlessly complicated (very true) and consequently very few have been able to reliably implement it so far, but that is somewhat a separate issue.

2) The situation has changed, and this is a multi-year funding framework. Ford+GM+Tesla and the charging networks are free to lobby for legislation to amend the framework to allow for NACS-only stations. I expect they will in fact, and they will probably be successful given the new situation.

3) This is hardly a "network to nowhere", because: CCS and NACS are the SAME THING, just with a different plug. Electrically and in software they are the same thing. Because of that, even in the legislation is not modified, any charging network that actually wants to make money will be adding a NACS plug to most/every station.
 
[CCS can] theoretically be implemented by anybody who pays for access to the standards documents.
My understanding is that Qualcomm owns the rights to the communications standard and so you actually cannot implement CCS in your backyard with a Raspberry Pi, you need that communications chip and my understanding is that they are not generally available. You can pull them outta wrecked cars, or you can order spare parts from an OEM, but you are still paying Qualcomm, just indirectly, that way. Kinda disappointing as people will wanna add NACS to their cars and until someone manufacturers a kit that includes the parts from Qualcomm you won't be able to implement it on my i-Miev or whatever.

Of course this may all be academic as most cars COME with CCS and surely SOMEONE will figure out how to reverse engineer the Tesla CHAdeMO adapter for those cars that don't. Anybody else probably shouldn't be DC Fast Charging their electric scooter anyway. But I sure would like to plug in my 150 volt Vectrix electric motorcycle at a Supercharger on a road trip.
 
My understanding is that Qualcomm owns the rights to the communications standard and so you actually cannot implement CCS in your backyard with a Raspberry Pi, you need that communications chip and my understanding is that they are not generally available. You can pull them outta wrecked cars, or you can order spare parts from an OEM, but you are still paying Qualcomm, just indirectly, that way. Kinda disappointing as people will wanna add NACS to their cars and until someone manufacturers a kit that includes the parts from Qualcomm you won't be able to implement it on my i-Miev or whatever.

Of course this may all be academic as most cars COME with CCS and surely SOMEONE will figure out how to reverse engineer the Tesla CHAdeMO adapter for those cars that don't. Anybody else probably shouldn't be DC Fast Charging their electric scooter anyway. But I sure would like to plug in my 150 volt Vectrix electric motorcycle at a Supercharger on a road trip.
Yeah, the Qualcomm issue is annoying. The latest thing in the DIY space I have seen (on the Open Inverter forum) that people seem to have mostly working is to cannibalize those power line Ethernet transceivers you can buy to to run wired networking in your hose from outlet to outlet. They use PLC, so essentially are a CCS coms board already. It sure does feel wrong that a 'standard' like this can be so patent-encumbered though. Too bad NACS does nothing to fix this, but this is what we are stuck with either way I guess. CANbus would have been so much better to stick with like (Chademo or Tesla Supercharger): easy and far more open. The choice of PLC is even more baffling since in CCS is it not even being used on any power line, it is being sent on a dedicated data pin. WTF?
 
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The choice of PLC is even more baffling since in CCS is it not even being used on any power line, it is being sent on a dedicated data pin. WTF?
Just spitballing but, perhaps, PLC is more immune to noise on the line than CAN or other data protocols that can count on a clean line.
My understanding is that Tesla originally intended to use the exact same signalling as CCS. I don't know when they shifted course or why.
 
I think there’s a lot that’s unclear about how this is all going to play out.

There are two key reasons the supercharger network is so good - there’s enough of them, and they are reliable and easy to use.

Tesla had an incentive to promote their closed charging ecosystem to sell cars. They now have to build stations that support multiple vehicle types and communication standards, which is much harder. Based on early reports of the “Magic Dock”, the experience seems to be way worse than what we are all used to.

Buying a Ford or Chevy EV with an NACS before they switch over to a NACS plug seems like a smart move - you get all CCS stations, the best supercharger stations, and level 2 (J1772) charging without an adapter, which is how people charge most of the time.

In the end, it’s not clear to me how Tesla owners actually benefit from this. They no longer need a CCS adapter if all the supercharger bays are full? Is that the big win? I’ve seen Tesla owners get left behind enough times.
 
In the end, it’s not clear to me how Tesla owners actually benefit from this. They no longer need a CCS adapter if all the supercharger bays are full? Is that the big win? I’ve seen Tesla owners get left behind enough times.
Upfront the immediate benefit is Ford/GM is providing hundreds of millions in funding (from the hint GM talked about the amount of money saved over investing in their own infrastructure) to cover the expected increase in demand.

This benefits everyone using the network because availability improves much more in absolute terms than relative. For example, even with twice the demand, a 20 stall station will likely result in less wait time than 10 stall station, just based on random arrivals.

In the long run, it ensures third party networks will start installing NACS (an avalanche of them started doing so after these announcements) which eliminates the need for Tesla owners to buy adapters.
 
Here are the companies I have seen issue support for NACS: AmpUp, Autel, Blink, EVPassport, FreeWire, FLO, EVgo, and ABB.

Blink, EVPassport, FreeWire, FLO, and EVgo are CPOs. (Charge Point Operators)

Add Finnish company Kempower to the charger companies. Bjørn Nyland watchers will know about them.
These folks put together a Tesla NACS Charger Adoption Tracker page:
 
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In the end, it’s not clear to me how Tesla owners actually benefit from this. They no longer need a CCS adapter if all the supercharger bays are full? Is that the big win? I’ve seen Tesla owners get left behind enough times.
More utilization of the Supercharger network, plus the buy-in from Ford and GM, means more revenue for expanding the Supercharger network even faster than is happening now. Which is already impressively fast, IMO. For the near future, the number of Ford and GM cars is a speck compared to the number of Teslas on the road.

Also, If NACS starts to become standard on non Tesla charge stations, that makes them more available for Tesla drivers.
 
On CNBC they were talking about the government spending $7.5B on a charging network to nowhere. Sounds about right.
Even if every automaker signs on to NACS tomorrow, effectively killing CCS1 in North America, and the regulations aren't updated, the CCS1 stations that are built will not be useless, for a number of reasons:
  • The current regulations do not specify that charging stations must support only CCS1; they explicitly permit operators to install other plugs (read: NACS plugs) in addition to the CCS1 plugs. In the scenario I just outlined, you can be sure that every station installed with NEVI funds (with the possible exception of a few that are already well along; I don't know how many might be that far) will have NACS plugs, as well as CCS1 plugs.
  • CCS1-to-NACS adapters, like the one that Tesla now sells, will be common. They may even be included standard with some EVs. Thus, the CCS1 plugs won't be useless to NACS vehicles, just less convenient to use.
  • There's already a significant installed base of CCS1 vehicles, and that installed base will grow for at least another couple of years -- probably longer. The Ford and GM announcements say that they will begin producing NACS vehicles in 2025. They're carefully worded to say nothing about how long they'll continue building CCS1 vehicles. Ford's announcement implies that NACS plugs will appear on their next-generation EV design, so EVs based on their current architecture may continue to use CCS1 until those vehicles are redesigned on a next-generation platform. The same is likely to be true of GM and other manufacturers who sign on to NACS. Thus, I don't expect the final CCS1 vehicle to roll off the assembly line until about five years from now at the earliest. All of this is important because these vehicles will need to charge somewhere, and their drivers are likely to prefer native CCS1 plugs to NACS plugs with an adapter, all other things being equal.
  • Charging station cables can be replaced relatively easily. Although the cost is high in most individuals' eyes (in the thousands of dollars), it's cheap compared to building a new charging station. Thus, in time, as NACS vehicles become more common and CCS1 vehicles less, older CCS1 stations can be converted to NACS. This may even be done as part of routine maintenance, since cables do occasionally become damaged and must be replaced.
  • The NEVI funding will last for five years. We'll need to continue building charging stations well beyond then, and if NACS is adopted by all automakers, chances are stations built after NEVI funding runs out will be predominantly NACS.
They would just need enough length to reach, but the main problem is cost and likely charging restrictions.
EVgo uses a customized version of this adapter at some of its stations, with an even longer cord.
How nice that our tax $$$ will be used to build infrastructure for foreign cars instead of American made that has now standardized on NACS.
See some of my earlier points -- chances are that at least some NEVI funding will support the building of stations that support both CCS1 and NACS.

Also, at the time the rules were written, all non-Tesla US automakers were on-board with CCS1. IMHO, it's unfair to blame the relevant agencies for not being clairvoyant.

Also, at the moment (unless something's changed very recently), Rivian, Lucid, and a few other startups are still American automakers that still use CCS1. Also, Nissan, VW, and some other foreign-headquartered brands make EVs in the United States as well as overseas. Tesla is reportedly planning to import Chinese-made Model Ys to Canada, and I'm sure some of them well end up on American roads. The amount of content that's crossed national boundaries in most cars is huge. Even Tesla is importing batteries from China for use in some Teslas. Thus, the whole American-vs-foreign manufacturing thing isn't very simple; there's a lot of nuance.
1) When this legislation was written/passed CCS was the logical choice. It is a 'standard' so not controlled by one manufacturer, had broad support from various stakeholders, and can theoretically be implemented by anybody who pays for access to the standards documents.
I mostly agree with this, except for one important point: The legislation doesn't mention CCS; the legislation just requires that the stations built with NEVI funding be able to service multiple brands of EV. As with most legislation, the language of the law must be implemented by one or more Federal agencies, and in doing so, they generally fill in the gaps based on their expertise. In this case, the CCS1 requirement came in this interpretation. This means that it's much easier to change -- although Federal agencies don't generally reverse their decisions in a matter of days, so I wouldn't expect it to change for months or years even if all the automakers signed on to NACS in the next month or two. Tesla, Ford, GM, and whoever else signs on to NACS may lobby to have the rules changed, but they probably won't be lobbying Congress -- they'll be lobbying Federal agencies (specifically, the Federal Highway Administration [FHA], which is part of the Department of Transportation [DOT], if I understand correctly). This also means that anybody who wants to write to somebody in government about this, you should probably write to Pete Buttigieg first. Writing your own elected Representative and Senator likely won't hurt, but they're now out of the loop, unless they become so motivated that they decide to start pestering the executive branch.
Tesla had an incentive to promote their closed charging ecosystem to sell cars. They now have to build stations that support multiple vehicle types and communication standards, which is much harder. Based on early reports of the “Magic Dock”, the experience seems to be way worse than what we are all used to.
Some of the Magic Dock experiences will be relevant to Ford and GM vehicles charging at Superchargers in the future, but others won't be. Some things may depend on the design of the adapter. Some may change when NACS-equipped Fords and GMs are released. For instance:
  • Weird parking caused by a mis-match between Supercharger design and Ford/GM charge-port location will be a problem with some CCS-equipped vehicles (AFAIK, including all current Ford and GM products) unless Tesla designs an adapter with a significant length of cable (which I think is unlikely, but I wouldn't want to rule out the possibility entirely) or Tesla retrofits existing stations with longer cables (which may well happen, particularly at busier stations that are most likely to be affected by these problems). Looking forward, standardizing the port location once NACS-based vehicles are released might be part of the deal; or Tesla providing longer cables might be part of the deal. Either way, this problem is likely to fade in time.
  • App hassles are not likely to occur, or might occur just at the start because of bugs in the rollout that will be fixed. This is because, based on public statements by Ford's Jim Farley, one of Ford's deal-breaker conditions was that Ford drivers would not be required to install a Tesla app. Although they haven't been explicit about this, it sounds like the goal is to create a Tesla-like plug-in-and-charge experience, but with billing being done by Ford. GM has released fewer details, so it could be it will work differently for GM, but my guess is it will be similar for both companies, and for any future sign-ons. That said, this is at least a little bit speculative, since the details haven't yet been laid out.
  • Low charging speeds don't seem likely with Ford and GM vehicles; both brands seem to work well at Magic Docks, based on YouTube videos and PlugShare reports I've seen. (Note that I'm judging this by the car's speed; a Chevy Bolt won't charge at 250 kW on a Supercharger!) This will likely be a problem with some cars, though, especially those with 800v architectures -- at least, until Tesla installs significant numbers of V4 Superchargers or retrofits existing V3 stations to support 800v; or until automakers come up with better ways to handle charging from a 400v source on an 800v vehicle.
  • Reliability problems could exist with some vehicles from brands that have yet to sign on, but as with charging speeds, most of the videos and PlugShare check-ins I've seen suggest that Ford and GM vehicles, at least, work pretty well with Superchargers. It's entirely possible that both Tesla and other automakers are watching Magic Dock data and using that in negotiations. If compatibility problems between Superchargers and Brand A vehicles can be fixed, then Brand A may be more likely to sign on to NACS.
  • Physical adapter hassles are likely to be greater than with Magic Docs, simply because drivers will have to carry them around, dig them out from under whatever other stuff they're carrying around, and probably use two hands to attach them to the NACS plug.
Overall, I expect that the experience of current CCS-based cars under the new program to be better than with Magic Docks, with the exception of adapter hassles. Once third-party vehicles switch to NACS, I expect it'll be better still. It might not quite match the Tesla experience, since involving a non-Tesla party for billing and whatnot opens possibilities for additional problems, and since CCS seems to be a quirkier protocol than Tesla's proprietary protocol; but I expect it'll be close.
 
Just spitballing but, perhaps, PLC is more immune to noise on the line than CAN or other data protocols that can count on a clean line.
My understanding is that Tesla originally intended to use the exact same signalling as CCS. I don't know when they shifted course or why.

I thought that Tesla's plug was designed before CCS1 was even a standard. Am I wrong about that?
 
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I thought that Tesla's plug was designed before CCS1 was even a standard. Am I wrong about that?
Supercharger protocol a superset of CCS?

But not before J1772. Plus combo was already in planning stages, having been announced in late 2011:
SAE working on new J1772 combo coupler standard for plug-in vehicles - Autoblog

Back then (in 2013) JB Straubel (then CTO of Tesla) suggested that Tesla's standard was compatible with the Combo Connector, which many (including myself) speculated meant PLC support. Turned out not be the case, as Tesla only used CAN for supercharging (even though the analog parts of the handshake is very similar). Of course later they retrofitted to add the PLC necessary to support CCS.
 
NACS is moving fast without resistance.


 
People with CCS cars need to make their peace with a) you bought the wrong car and b) you'll need an adapter.
More likely CCS cars will be relegated to local use. I still see plenty of ten year old Nissan LEAFs bopping around and nobody seems to be complaining. The stats tell the the story; 35 miles is plenty for most people's usage.
 
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People with CCS cars need to make their peace with a) you bought the wrong car and b) you'll need an adapter.
More likely CCS cars will be relegated to local use. I still see plenty of ten year old Nissan LEAFs bopping around and nobody seems to be complaining. The stats tell the the story; 35 miles is plenty for most people's usage.
I've seen plenty of other EV drivers grousing about how awful it is that their tax money paid for Tesla Superchargers that they can't use.

At least the new GM and Ford drivers won't be among this ignorant, but self-entitled group.