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Grid Support from Tesla cars

Discussion in 'Australia & New Zealand' started by eclectricdave, Feb 2, 2018.

  1. eclectricdave

    eclectricdave Member

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    Instead of more centralised batteries like the one at Hornibrook SA (!00Mwhrs) why cant we use our own parked cars? You would need three phase power, cooperation from Tesla & compensation from power companies. However you would also be able to charge at Chardemo levels 50kWs. Ill assume that house hold levels are 50kWs capable. 2000 cars gves us 100 MWhrs. The equipment would also need a grid feeding inverter & internet connection to control export. Our cars could supply this much power for at least an hour & more if you had a large solar system. With the rapid uptake of EVs I think this idea has merit in the future.
     
  2. Drewflux

    Drewflux Member

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    Unfortunately I dont think Vehicle To Grid is on Tesla's roadmap. I do agree with the thought and have high hopes, that power wall 3 might have a high rate charge/discharge function
     
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  3. SSedan

    SSedan Active Member

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    and then your car doesn't have the charge you need when you need it and you are wearing out the battery early..................
     
  4. eclectricdave

    eclectricdave Member

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    The first obstacle is "no warranty if battery is used for external loads". or some such wording. It would always be used in such a manner that you have energy for your own usage. In any case you would be able to charge at 50kW when the crisis passes..The use would be occasional I feel.
     
  5. baillies

    baillies Member

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    If you google V2G or V2H you will get some info, the Nissan Leaf supports this. They are trying to setup in other places but I don’t think it has been approved anywhere yet. There are several issue including regulatory, warranty, incorrect chemistry, cost. I don’t know of any houses with 50kW 3phase inverters;)

    JB gives some reasons in a video that I think is in this thread Worth Watching - Tesla

    The roadster supported some sort of power export but they removed from S and subsequent vehicles.

    I also hope powerwall 3 supports DCDC charging to the vehicle and ideally bidirectional during a blackout if needed. The key point is I doubt it would be used much wherever there is a decent grid connection available so the market would be small, although maybe still good for marketing?

    Edit: adding to this I think encouraging/requiring schools, hospitals, emergency services stations etc as well as homes to have solar and powerpacks/powerwalls would be much better than encouraging batteries attached to grid infrastructure miles away from where the power is used (most blackouts are due to the grid failing).
     
  6. Drewflux

    Drewflux Member

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    I think bidirectional pw3 could change a lot of markets. Currently for myself and baillies. We get slaughtered on export to grid. But if we were self-powering on peak loads. Could be a good thing. I see it no more wearing to the battery than a full charge/disscharge cycle each day.
     
  7. Chuq

    Chuq Active Member

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    I think controlled load EV charging units will prove to be just as useful in the end.

    They don't need stored energy to feed back into the grid - but just stop their draw *from* the grid for a short time (a couple of minutes). The ability to mass control a bunch of EVSEs from around the country could prove to be very useful, and doesn't need the car to specifically support it.
     
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  8. SSedan

    SSedan Active Member

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    and how many cars are used this way? Right now VERY VERY few cars see heavy cycling 7 days a week 365 days a year, Other than taxi's I doubt any get used that hard, with the 8 year unlimited mileage warranty this would be massive financial risk for Tesla. Right now they can absorb the financial risk of a few but if you go and make the use of a majority of batteries that heavy that changes everything.
     
  9. doctorwho

    doctorwho Member

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    Tesla will never offer V2G whilst they are providing free Supercharging. They won't provide free power that owners can on-sell back to the grid at a profit
     
  10. WhiteStar

    WhiteStar Member

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    That is a major complication and I'm sure Tesla don't want to cannibalise the Powerwall market.

    Not to mention batteries are so last century lol

    Hydrogen.jpeg
     
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  11. Dylanpete

    Dylanpete Member

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    We may have a long way to go before we see V2H or V2G in Australia but in the long term it's the way to go.
    Nissan has already seen the light and starts promoting their "Leaf to home" in the US:
    "Today about 4,000 households in Japan are utilizing their EVs to manage home energy use. They can be used as a backup power supply for blackouts and emergencies."
    Coming Soon: “Leaf to Home” Emergency Electrical Backup

    If Nissan gets the "Leaf to Home" certified in Australia and introduces it accordingly with proper marketing they may get a serious demand!
     
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  12. doctorwho

    doctorwho Member

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    Does anyone know how V2G actually works? What happens of you have an existing PV system and inverter? What if you have home batteries?
     
  13. Chuq

    Chuq Active Member

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    I imagine it would interface with the grid and your solar in the exact same way as a home battery.

    If you have a home battery AND a V2G vehicle... all bets are off :)

    I imagine in the future there will be a device like an "energy router". At the moment at home, I have a grid connection, my household load, two solar PV systems, and an EV. I expect to add a second EV and a home battery to that in the future. It's going to get rather complicated otherwise..
     
  14. baillies

    baillies Member

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    This is interesting on V2G for FCAS, hopefully AU can get the market rules to get this working. I guess we need to wait for Nissan to launch their EV’s here again (should be end this year)

     
  15. Tozz

    Tozz Active Member

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    V2G can be done in two ways:

    - 1: As a way to eliminate/solve power shortage in a working grid
    - 2: As a way to eliminate generators in case of a power outage (grid is down/blackout)

    Option 1: The first option is relatively simple, but is also not as useful for a regular car owner. It solves someone else his problem (the power company's problem). There are other solutions to solve power shortages that are more feasible, such as stop charging EVs. In The Netherlands there is a system/app that can do this: Jedlix. What is does it stops/starts charging your EV in 15 minute intervals depending on power shortage. This should, when enough cars participate, eliminate the need to boot up natural gas power stations. This is pretty much as effective as backfeeding your Tesla's power in the grid:

    Instead of feeding your power back to the grid that is used to power a car a mile further down the road, you can just stop charging cars. That lowers the total grid usage.

    So I do not believe Nissan's solution (which does actually backfeed power in the grid) is of very much use. There is no use in draining the batteries from 100 cars to feed the grid, when there are 100 cars elsewhere charging if you could also simply stop the charging process of those 100 cars. The net result is the same.

    The "stop charging" solution is something that could be done tomorrow if Tesla would implement this in firmware and cooperate with power companies, such as the Jedlix app already does today.

    There are significant losses in convertering AC to DC and vice versa, generated heat from the converters, etc. From an environmental standpoint the "stop charging solution" is much better than "drain car 1 to charge car 2 and a power vacuum cleaner".

    Option 2: The second option is much more complex. You would need to sever your home infrastructure from the grid in order to let the car power your house, otherwise your car would be trying to power the entire neighborhood and that won't work. So there needs to be infrastructure in your home to accomplish this, some kind of ATS/STS (Automatic Transfer Switch, Static Transfer Switch) with two inputs, 1 from the grid and 1 from the car.

    Any charging device such as the HPWC or a third party charger would need to be able to cope with backfeeding and also the required amount of power (which can be significant). It would also require some sort of converter to convert DC back to AC.

    So this won't work without some major modifications to both your electrical installation at home, the car and the charging system in your home.
     
  16. rikka

    rikka Member

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    Option 2 would have been good for us recently. Thanks to Cyclone Marcus we had no grid power for nearly 3 days (some houses are still out!). An option I'd thought of would use a switch to isolate the grid and perhaps a Powerwall serving the house and acting as BMS for the connected vehicle. That would mean V2PW rather than V2G and would let Tesla monitor and manage that connection fully. It would get around issues like V2G cannibalising Powerwall sales and those people Supercharging to then power a home. Tesla could limit certain uses and at times of natural disasters, relax those constraints.
     
  17. Tozz

    Tozz Active Member

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    That could indeed be an option, to plug your S or X in the power wall as an additional battery pack. The car could set up a DC connection with the powerwall.

    I am not familiar with the Powerwall, but I thought it was dependent on grid connection. By that i mean it will not act as an autonomous power source such as a generator would. So this would require changes to the powerwall hardware.
     
  18. NeverFollow

    NeverFollow Active Member

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    #18 NeverFollow, Mar 28, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
    In fact, Australia can produce enough electricity and even exports electricity to other islands.

    Does Australia Energy Export Future Lie with the Asian Supergrid?
    [​IMG]



    >> 2,000 cars gives us 100 MWhrs
    Using car batteries can help but the management of all those (2,000) cars can be complex,
    because each car still needs to stay charged corresponding to the need of each car owner.
    Using a bank of batteries
    , like the Hornibrook SA (100Mwhrs) is quite more simpler to manage.


    The problem is more an issue of load balancing.
    You need to have a higher perspective view of the problem, in particular using HVDC (High Voltage DC) lines
    allows carrying large amount of electricity on long distance while isolating grids.
     
  19. EcoCloudIT

    EcoCloudIT Member

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    Even for charge a 2x EV car family from one EV to the other would be nice.

    So solar on the roof and a Tesla PW for the house....in my case my wife is at home most days and her car would charge from the panels....when I get home her car could top my car up.....this would then reduce the battery and roof solar panels to meet our requirements....

    Just a thought....
     
  20. miimura

    miimura Active Member

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    The PowerWall 2 has an integrated inverter and is usually installed in USA with what Tesla calls a Backup Gateway. This gateway has an automatic transfer switch inside to isolate the "backup loads", the Powerwall(s) and the solar from the grid. With enough solar generation and load management, the system can work autonomously for an indefinite period of grid outage. I believe the Australian installations also include this backup gateway while most European installations do not.
     
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