Has the way you feel about Tesla changed the way you speak about Tesla to others?

[jbcarioca]

I do not think my Tesla is perfect. No product I have ever purchased has been perfect. The closer something comes to being perfect the more i am inclined to point out deficiencies. So it is with my frequent complaints about my Tesla. It is only my extreme attachment to the car that makes me inclined to spend so much effort discussing improvements.

My inclination to sing the praises of the car and company are precisely because of continuous improvement and a brilliant basic execution.

Quoting a friend "the best is just barely good enough". More people should be so lucky as to have the niggling complaints about which we wax eloquent here at TMC.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Came to see if the title and poll were going where it seemed the OP was taking it...and yup...I was correct.

Complaining is fine, but this seems a slightly melodramatic way of going about it.

 

[tstafford]

Lot's of great comments.

My guess is that a lot of the frustrations people express (which are understandable) come from the expectations. I DEFINITELY believe the Tesla website is very misleading. The folks who post/read this forum understand the current state of things but the average person going to the site would likely come away either confused or more likely misinformed. Sure they could read the fine print, do more research, etc. but it's not unreasonable for them to think they could read the site and basically understand the offering. To add to that, Elon's own comments often stretch the truth - to be polite.

Think some of it also seems to come from the prior experiences of the owners however. I'm a newbie to Tesla but a long time car guy. I've owned three Ferraris, a Maserati and 2 Porsche GT3s (among dozens of other Porsches, MBs, Audis and BMWs). I assure you that the issues people describe here about the Model S are similar in severity, surprise and frustration as the Ferraris. Ferrari doesn't give a rat's ass what owners think about things like $12K engine out belt services, clutches that are considered to be wear items, crappy electronics, switches and trim pieces that turn to goo, etc. If you've owned a 360 (or god forbid a 355) you know exactly what I'm talking about. Go visit ferrarichat.com if you doubt me.

My point is that one could argue that Tesla is in its own way just as exotic as a Ferrari. If that's the case, then some amount of BS is to be expected. AND, more importantly, the thrill component needs to overcome the BS factor. Trust me that a Ferrari is a constant source of pain and suffering offset by amazing drive time and Sunday brunches.

It's nearly impossible to find a perfect blend of bullet proof reliability and thrill IMHO. I remember being the first person to buy a 997TT from the Greensboro dealer. I thought that car would be the perfect mix. And in many ways it was. However in a very strange way I missed the issues, the quirkiness, the low grade anxiety that Ferrari brought me. There was nothing to post on Rennlist. The car just did what it was supposed to. Is that thrilling? Maybe yes, maybe no.

As to the question, I can't answer it for Tesla yet. But for Ferrari when people ask me about it I think I'm simply more informed and hopefully useful to them. I don't think it's more or less positive than before, but it's just more accurate. I suspect that's the case with most anything as complex as a Ferrari (or Tesla).

This is how I'm coming at the Tesla.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

With regard to changes that have been made to some of the service policies, Tesla is growing by leaps and bounds and deliveries are up over 50% YoY. That means that the service we received early on, when there were very few cars on the road, cannot scale as Tesla delivers more and more vehicles. Add Model X to the mix, and then a half million Model 3 deliveries by 2020, and you can see where this is headed.

Policies are bound to change on the service front due to growth and the need to service a larger installed base. As an early adopter in 2013, I understood this and expected policies to change over time. Tesla still bends over backwards and waives certain policies if it suits the situation and to make the customer happy. But we need to extend some understanding to Tesla in this area. The service is still top notch, in my opinion.

 

[bonnie]

Eh, big picture here. Yes, they could improve on things. (Communication!) But I have NEVER seen a company expand so quickly and with so few missteps as they have. Period. EVER. Let me give a little context...

Back in 2010, I fell in love with a certain car and took delivery of a Roadster Sport in 2011. The company was very small then & I was lucky enough to get to know several people personally. And then it all exploded. The NUMMI site was purchased for pennies on the dollar, with equipment, Elon & staff pulled one rabbit after another out of a hat. And at that time, I was in a director position at a Fortune 100 company, where as part of my job, I evaluated companies as potential acquisitions. I like to think I was somewhat good at that (my employer did).

It was at the point of the factory acquisition (and well before Model S deliveries) that I realized that IF I had any faith in my ability to evaluate a company, I needed to place a big bet on Tesla. Quite simply, I had never been so impressed with a company's management, execution, and product as I was with Tesla. So I placed that bet. I had insight to their management at all levels, heck, I even had an inspiring conversation with the shuttle bus driver one day. I'd never EVER run into a company where every single person actually shared the vision of the top person. (Sure, lots of lip service - but this was a first.) The customer service I experienced and continue to experience was phenomenal. The product. Ohh the product. How they handled their limited funds was impressive

So sure. they make some missteps. But I continue to be blown away by the company and am happy to have a front row seat watching them change the world. And they are changing the world. We've all witnessed how the conversation has changed, because of the existence of Tesla.

All that said, that doesn't mean I just give them a pass on everything and anything. I wouldn't do that for any company. And it's not how they make themselves better. We all have different ways of handling things. I don't find the forum route to be particularly effective, but I know others feel better when posting.

But do I sing Tesla's praises? HECK YEAH! What other company inspires such passion among its owners? And what other company is so set on changing the world while supplying roller coaster rides to customers?

 

[AmpedRealtor]

Eh, big picture here. Yes, they could improve on things. (Communication!) But I have NEVER seen a company expand so quickly and with so few missteps as they have. Period. EVER. Let me give a little context...

Back in 2010, I fell in love with a certain car and took delivery of a Roadster Sport in 2011. The company was very small then & I was lucky enough to get to know several people personally. And then it all exploded. The NUMMI site was purchased for pennies on the dollar, with equipment, Elon & staff pulled one rabbit after another out of a hat. And at that time, I was in a director position at a Fortune 100 company, where as part of my job, I evaluated companies as potential acquisitions. I like to think I was somewhat good at that (my employer did).

It was at the point of the factory acquisition (and well before Model S deliveries) that I realized that IF I had any faith in my ability to evaluate a company, I needed to place a big bet on Tesla. Quite simply, I had never been so impressed with a company's management, execution, and product as I was with Tesla. So I placed that bet. I had insight to their management at all levels, heck, I even had an inspiring conversation with the shuttle bus driver one day. I'd never EVER run into a company where every single person actually shared the vision of the top person. (Sure, lots of lip service - but this was a first.) The customer service I experienced and continue to experience was phenomenal. The product. Ohh the product. How they handled their limited funds was impressive

So sure. they make some missteps. But I continue to be blown away by the company and am happy to have a front row seat watching them change the world. And they are changing the world. We've all witnessed how the conversation has changed, because of the existence of Tesla.

All that said, that doesn't mean I just give them a pass on everything and anything. I wouldn't do that for any company. And it's not how they make themselves better. We all have different ways of handling things. I don't find the forum route to be particularly effective, but I know others feel better when posting.

But do I sing Tesla's praises? HECK YEAH! What other company inspires such passion among its owners? And what other company is so set on changing the world while supplying roller coaster rides to customers?

What Tesla has done in the last five years is nothing short of amazing... Design a class-leading electric car with a practical range and mind-blowing performance; buy a factory, hundreds of robots, and figure out how to start manufacturing this new car; build out an international fast-charge network; build out an international service network; fight the auto dealership lobby in almost every state for the right to sell their car; overcome Wall Street criticisms and doubts; continue evolving the product line and software; respond to the unexpected (battery fires) with poise and grace; place a $5 billion bet on battery factory to make Model 3 affordable; and much more...

When I look back at all Tesla has done in the last few years, it blows my mind. And Tesla continues executing well, more or less. Of course they could always improve this or that, but let's put things in perspective. My god, they continue to achieve the impossible!

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

Andy, I need a poll option that's a variant of option 1

Fundamentally, I still feel the same way about Tesla as I did over 5 years ago when I put my Model S reservation down. They are a company on the path to changing the world for the better. I admire their mission, innovation and hard work. I've always received first class treatment from them during the purchase process (two times around) and all service experiences. When I endured a personal mishap and lost my first Model S in the process, the way they reached out to me and my family reinforced that bond.

But... how I talk about Tesla with others has subtly changed. I'm more circumspect about talking Tesla in non-Tesla-fangirl/boy circles. There are a few reasons for that:

1) Tesla is still stuck in the "1% of 1%" space (I know that many of us think otherwise). Until the Model 3 is out, I'd rather the company and its products speak for themselves rather than me being a spokesperson of sorts (Tesla never asked me to, of course).

2) Tesla is definitely enduring a lot of growing pains and I fear that these will get progressively worse with what would be a very popular offering in the Model X and then, of course, the Model 3 that is sure to sell like gangbusters. I'm referring to long wait times for service appointments, queuing up at busy Superchargers, and yes, delayed delivery of features that are being promised too far in advance. On that last front, personally, I'd rather Tesla publicize prominently (on their website, and when Elon speaks/tweets) what's available today and let the fine print refer to what might be possible tomorrow rather than the other way around. I'm also not in favor of having all that gas savings math out there.

3) Service: this has been discussed to death for sure: I feel that Tesla has not gotten their story straight on "EVs cost far less to maintain than ICEs" and "our Service centers are not meant to turn a profit" what with an exorbitant annual service fee that doesn't even cover wheel alignment now.

All said and done, I'm still in the camp that wants to cut them some slack as they grow at breakneck speed while, at the same time, try to hold them accountable for certain missteps.

 

[Andyw2100]

Came to see if the title and poll were going where it seemed the OP was taking it...and yup...I was correct.

Complaining is fine, but this seems a slightly melodramatic way of going about it.

I already explained upthread that I posted this poll in response to a poster in a different thread suggesting that I was alone, or basically alone, in my views. The poll responses indicate otherwise.

As for my "taking" the poll in any particular direction, I did my best to make the poll as objective as possible. I worded the questions and the answer options as objectively as I could. I included nothing in the opening post to sway people either way. I didn't even post my own views, even though many people were posting their views, until someone specifically asked for the reasons someone who chose option 3 would have chosen option 3.

I also did not post links to this poll in all sorts of threads where people have been complaining about one thing or another. (If I were trying to influence the results, that would have been an obvious approach to take.) The only thread I posted this thread's link in is linked above, and that thread probably has a lot more people posting in support of Tesla than people posting with complaints about Tesla. In any case, I had to post the link in that thread, because a post in that thread was the reason I started the poll.

If you can suggest a way I could have worded this poll to make it more objective, I'd certainly be interested in hearing it.

You are correct that I was hoping there would be posters other than me selecting option 3--I've said as much--but if you somehow inferred that from how the thread and the poll were set up, I maintain that was just a good guess on your part.

Policies are bound to change on the service front due to growth and the need to service a larger installed base. As an early adopter in 2013, I understood this and expected policies to change over time. Tesla still bends over backwards and waives certain policies if it suits the situation and to make the customer happy. But we need to extend some understanding to Tesla in this area.

It's one thing to change the policies for new customers, going forward. It's an entirely different thing to change the policies after the fact, retroactively and unilaterally, for customers who already purchased their vehicles.

 

[darthy001]

All that said, that doesn't mean I just give them a pass on everything and anything. I wouldn't do that for any company. And it's not how they make themselves better. We all have different ways of handling things. I don't find the forum route to be particularly effective, but I know others feel better when posting.

Personally Tesla top-management in Norway has simply stopped replying to me, and my interactions with them has been nothing but curtious. Jerome also gave me the silent-treatment after initially responding to my first email to him in February. So I have a bad feeling your long relationship with Tesla has given you an unrealisitc view of what new customers these days actually face. That is what has caused me to stop "selling" Teslas the way I used to. My experience so far has been abysmal in terms of service where it matters. Situation here in Norway at least is only getting worse in that regard.

This is mostly in relation to still not having the correct seats in my car now 5months after delivery. But false claims and missing features just add to the irritation-levels.

For me the forum is just venting of frustration at the moment, I expect no outcome from it other than informing others of what to look out for.

Car is still brilliant, communications and service though are far from it.... All kinds of mixed feelings as I love the car but starting to really dislike the company and how they handle themselves.

Of course some employees have been very servicemindend but that doesnt really help when top-management doesnt let them do anything.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

It's one thing to change the policies for new customers, going forward. It's an entirely different thing to change the policies after the fact, retroactively and unilaterally, for customers who already purchased their vehicles.

Which policies are we talking about?

 

[Andyw2100]

Andy, I need a poll option that's a variant of option 1

I know, based on the smiley, that you were kidding, but for anyone else reading I'll point out that there is no way to add options to a poll once it has started.

Incidentally, there's also no way to edit--even minimally--the answers. I understand why--it would be inappropriate to edit the answers once people have responded. But it was frustrating, because as soon as I posted, I wanted to add the missing period after the last option. It had been there originally. (You'll have to trust me on that.) The answers are limited to 100 characters. My original answers were all more than 100 characters. Somehow in editing I lost that period. (You can't see the entire "answer" option at one time, but rather just a portion of it. I'll blame my carelessness on that.)

- - - Updated - - -

Which policies are we talking about?

I don't have first-hand knowledge of this one, but LetsGoFast was talking (upthread) about a policy change that would see the ranger fee go from $99 to $450 per visit, and was saying that it applied to him, retroactively.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

I already explained upthread that I posted this poll in response to a poster in a different thread suggesting that I was alone, or basically alone, in my views. The poll responses indicate otherwise.

As for my "taking" the poll in any particular direction, I did my best to make the poll as objective as possible. I worded the questions and the answer options as objectively as I could. I included nothing in the opening post to sway people either way. I didn't even post my own views, even though many people were posting their views, until someone specifically asked for the reasons someone who chose option 3 would have chosen option 3.

If you can suggest a way I could have worded this poll to make it more objective, I'd certainly be interested in hearing it.

You are correct that I was hoping there would be posters other than me selecting option 3--I've said as much--but if you somehow inferred that from how the thread and the poll were set up, I maintain that was just a good guess on your part.

I'm not that good a guesser. The way it was worded, and not leaving your impressions on the first post basically gave it away.

You posted your thoughts on the very first page, so if you were trying not to steer it in a specific direction then I would have waited a bit longer. That said, it was clear you had an agenda with the first post.

You should have just posted your feeling on the matter, instead of it looking as though you were simply waiting for someone to ask...so you could unload. Anyway, that's the way it came across, whether you actively meant it to or not.

Either way, I'm not trying to say you have no right to your opinion, or that you're even wrong,...just that your attempt to mask your resentment wasn't successful. So, you should have just aired it in the first post.

 

[Andyw2100]

Eh, big picture here. Yes, they could improve on things. (Communication!) But I have NEVER seen a company expand so quickly and with so few missteps as they have. Period. EVER. Let me give a little context...

All that said, that doesn't mean I just give them a pass on everything and anything. I wouldn't do that for any company. And it's not how they make themselves better. We all have different ways of handling things. I don't find the forum route to be particularly effective, but I know others feel better when posting.

But do I sing Tesla's praises? HECK YEAH! What other company inspires such passion among its owners? And what other company is so set on changing the world while supplying roller coaster rides to customers?

Thanks for the insightful, as usual, post, Bonnie.

For the record, I too have also often written to various people at Tesla directly, and some of the time, at least, I think perhaps that communication has made a difference.

I'd probably feel much more like you do about Tesla if I didn't feel like I was doomed to drive around with a mismatched interior for the next ten years.

 

[Arvind]

Lot's of great comments.

My guess is that a lot of the frustrations people express (which are understandable) come from the expectations. I DEFINITELY believe the Tesla website is very misleading. The folks who post/read this forum understand the current state of things but the average person going to the site would likely come away either confused or more likely misinformed. Sure they could read the fine print, do more research, etc. but it's not unreasonable for them to think they could read the site and basically understand the offering. To add to that, Elon's own comments often stretch the truth - to be polite.

.....
My point is that one could argue that Tesla is in its own way just as exotic as a Ferrari. If that's the case, then some amount of BS is to be expected. AND, more importantly, the thrill component needs to overcome the BS factor. Trust me that a Ferrari is a constant source of pain and suffering offset by amazing drive time and Sunday brunches.

......
This is how I'm coming at the Tesla.

Absolutely agree that it's all about expectations. See my other post on this. I take the realistic attitude that as a relatively new car company Tesla has made some rookie mistakes in PR but it's also made a number of brilliant moves. Actually after some time it's possible to discount their hyperbole by about the right amount so they meet expectations exactly

but I don't agree that Tesla is or can be like a Ferrari. Ferrari owners are a rare breed that are to a great extent willing to tolerate a lot of compromises on dimensions other than driving performance. They are not typical car owners.

Although the initial wave of Tesla buyers are also inspired by the combination of innovative ness, performance and eco friendliness that Tesla exemplifies, they will not suffice for the next two legs(Model X and 3). This new audience is mass market. Tesla will not find them nearly as forgiving of hyperbole, over promising, and design compromises on convenience. In other words, going forward, the thrill component cannot overcome the BS factor.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I don't have first-hand knowledge of this one, but LetsGoFast was talking (upthread) about a policy change that would see the ranger fee go from $99 to $450 per visit, and was saying that it applied to him, retroactively.

To be fair, Tesla allowed customers to buy a pre-paid Ranger plan. Those pre-paid plans were for $100 per visit. I don't think that has changed for people who bought that plan. Just like the alignments are still included for those who bought the pre-paid service. If the Ranger fee is changing, it is for those who did not pre-pay. Tesla raises prices on things like extended warranties and service visits because those are non-contractual. I suspect the increase to the Ranger fee falls under the same category, unless, of course, you pre-paid.

I heard from a reliable source within Tesla that they are trying to push people towards pre-paid service. That's why the alignment was decoupled from the $600 pay-at-the-door price. Tesla wants to discourage pay-at-the-door. Based on some of the thread posts I've read about the annual service, the strategy seems to be working.

 

[jerry33]

I heard from a reliable source within Tesla that they are trying to push people towards pre-paid service. That's why the alignment was decoupled from the $600 pay-at-the-door price. Tesla wants to discourage pay-at-the-door. Based on some of the thread posts I've read about the annual service, the strategy seems to be working. Sounds like Tesla needs cash! lol

Of course, it could also be that Tesla doesn't want to deal with the complaints about charges (the cash kind) that non-prepaid service will have. Prepaid service eliminates most of those.

 

[Andyw2100]

To be fair, Tesla allowed customers to buy a pre-paid Ranger plan. Those pre-paid plans were for $100 per visit. I don't think that has changed for people who bought that plan. Just like the alignments are still included for those who bought the pre-paid service. If the Ranger fee is changing, it is for those who did not pre-pay. Tesla raises prices on things like extended warranties and service visits because those are non-contractual. I suspect the increase to the Ranger fee falls under the same category, unless, of course, you pre-paid.

I'm pretty sure the plan you are talking about was no longer offered at the time I was purchasing my car. One rep on the phone, before realizing how remotely I lived from any service centers, had given me the $99 per ranger visit number when I had asked about how I'd get service. Later, someone in person told me the $99 did not apply to me, because I was more than 200 miles from a service center, so ranger visits would be at no charge. And again--no one has yet told me otherwise.

But all of that not withstanding, the ability to get service is an integral part of a car purchase. For those of us who live a good distance from any service center, the ranger service was touted as the answer to "how do we get service", and part of that answer for many of us included the $99 charge that went along with the ranger service. To quadruple or quintuple that charge, while perhaps allowed contractually, is not the customer-service oriented way to approach things.

 

[neroden]

To be fair, Tesla allowed customers to buy a pre-paid Ranger plan.

Unlimited ranger service, prepaid. For 8 years. (4 years was also available.) I bought it. It's being honored.

But Tesla IS NOT SELLING the prepaid Ranger plan any more.

I heard from a reliable source within Tesla that they are trying to push people towards pre-paid service

Well, that's an abject failure then, isn't it? You can't push people toward pre-paid service by NOT OFFERING IT.

Tesla's new proposal is to charge $600 (or is it $1200? Not clear to me) for every single service visit by someone in Ithaca (200 miles away from SC), just for the transportation. Apparently including for warranty service?!? Unacceptable risk of unlimited service costs, and so I'll be telling people not to buy the car.

There are some real morons in Tesla management...

- - - Updated - - -

Later, someone in person told me the $99 did not apply to me, because I was more than 200 miles from a service center, so ranger visits would be at no charge.

This needs to be formal, published Tesla policy, part of the warranty and the sales contract and so on. I think that would settle most worries. We already know that some of the service centers have been telling people at great distances that they will be charged astronomical sums for Ranger/Valet service (such as the poor fellow in Newfoundland).


It's still the best car in the world, but if you can't get it repaired under warranty economically, you shouldn't buy it, and that's what I'm going to be telling people until Tesla issues a suitable clarification.

 

[wk057]

I know Tesla monitors the forums... I kind of hope they take note of this poll...

 

[Andyw2100]

I know Tesla monitors the forums... I kind of hope they take note of this poll...

If they do, they should realize that I think for many of us selecting Option 3, it wouldn't take all that much to turn us around to the point where if a poll like this was taken again six months or a year from now, we might select option 2 as our answer.

The most frustrating thing about it for me is that at least in my mind, the things that changed how I felt were essentially things that did not have big costs associated with them. They were things handled poorly, that could have been handled better, or later corrected.

I guess what I'm trying to say is it's not a situation where, at least in my mind, a lot of the option 3 people are selecting option 3 because of, say, an engineering problem, like, for example, the one that exists (or existed) with the early contactors and / or the 12V batteries. I can see problems like that being very hard to solve, and costly to get to the bottom of, and I think, for the most part, we all can, and we're willing to cut Tesla slack on those kinds of things, for all the reasons the supporters give for supporting Tesla. But the communications problems cost next to nothing to fix. How much would it have cost Tesla to explain the efficiency issue and the fact that our P85Ds were being delivered without torque sleep --BEFORE-- we started taking delivery instead of months afterwards? It's not like we weren't going to notice! Instead, we were all left in the dark, wondering what was wrong with our cars.

For me, it's that kind of thing, over and over and over again. If anyone from Tesla is reading, I, for one, know it can be fixed!