Help needed: Significantly reduced range on a P90DL - should I take delivery?

[iqless]

I also posted in the "ordering/delivery" forum, I apologize for posting it here, but it's quite urgent and I'd like to have as much input into this as possible today and tomorrow (since I'm scheduled to pick the car up on Saturday)

"Upon INSISTING to learn the range at 100% charge of the P90DL I was going to be picking up (after flying to Baltimore) this Saturday, I finally got a sales advisor to go to the lot, look for my car, and tell me what he saw:

245 miles at 99%.

So at best 247-248 on a 100%. This car is from 2015, and has 41,000 miles. Considering it should have been about 270 miles to begin with, this represents just shy of 10% degradation on this, which is I think quite a bit more than average.

I'd heard earlier 90kWh packs had many problems of which rapid degradation was one. Maybe this is that?

I'd love to hear what you guys think of this - should I take delivery, or roll the dice on another P90DL, or get a P85D instead (apparently way better battery packs). I don't take trips all that often to need a huge battery but I also don't want to spend $60,000 on a car and get a badly degraded one.

Or am I completely wrong in that this is a bad amount of degradation, and is this normal?

Thank you!"

 

[juliusa]

Seems like typical degradation.

You might be interested in this thread: P90DL battery replacement thread.

 

[iqless]

Is 10 percent in 41,000 miles typical degradation? That sounds a lot higher than average to me - I thought it was generally 1% per year?

 

[juliusa]

I thought it was generally 1% per year

It is not linear. A lot at the beginning, then it tapers off. Look at the thread on the P90DL batteries though - the 90 batteries are "different".

 

[iqless]

Yeah, I've heard earlier 90kWh's especially have a lot of degradation. I mean, mine might be an average amt of degradation for a "bad" battery but it's still a bad battery...

.. the problem is they'd never tell me the range of a car I haven't put down money for, so if I turn down this one, I'll be rolling the dice on another one too.

 

[Ostrichsak]

From what I've seen you can expect the largest drop-off in the first 10-20k miles of about 5% with it then it tapers off pretty dramatically. Most of the cars I see are in that 10% +/-2% range and that goes for cars over 100k miles too.

 

[Troy]

See the chart here. The average capacity at 41,000 miles is 95.1% and this car has 89.4% left. That's 5.7% less capacity than the average at this mileage. There is a known problem with 2015 90 kWh packs. Also, be aware that:

• The plastic nosecone in Model S produced before 12 Apr 2016 is considered old-fashioned by many people. The nosecone instantly communicates to everybody that this is an old model that was discontinued 3 years ago. Model S produced after that is known as the facelift version.
• Model 3 Performance has Track Mode but Model S Performance doesn't. Instead, it has Limp Mode. See the discussion here. This is because of weaker battery cooling in Model S/X. See the article here.
• Model 3 supports 250 kW at Supercharger V3 stations Tesla started building. Model S will support 145 kW. However, 90 kWh packs that have heavy degradation are limited to 90 kW Supercharging based on what people are reporting. I expect Tesla to switch Model S/X production to 2170 cells most likely at the end of Sep 2019. See the news article here. This will enable 250 kW Supercharger V3 support for Model S/X produced after 25 Sep 2019.
• Check out the range table here. What the car displays is not the range you get at highway speeds. For example, P90D with 21" wheels has 226 miles range at 75 mph when new. That means because of degradation, this car has 226*0.894= 202 miles range at 75 mph at 100% charge. However, for day to day driving, you are supposed to charge to 90% instead of 100%. That means your daily range will be 0.9*202= 182 miles at 75 mph in summer. However, in winter you will lose between 15-30% range depending on how harsh winters are where you live. If we assume 20% winter loss, that leaves you with 0.8*182= 145 miles for day to day driving.
• Teslas produced after 28 Mar 2019 have Autopilot 3.0. There is a huge difference between AP3.0 hardware and the previous version known as AP2.5. See the video here. AP2.5 is pretty much done in terms of new features that will be added with future software updates. However, this car does not have AP2.5 or AP2.0 either. Here is AP hardware version history for Model S/X:
  • Jul 2012 to 18 Sep 2014: No Autopilot
  • 19 Sep 2014 to 15 Oct 2016: AP1.0
  • 16 Oct 2016 to 27 Jul 2017: AP2.0
  • 28 Jul 2017 to 27 Mar 2019: AP2.5
  • 28 Mar 2019 and later AP3.0
  AP2.0 and AP2.5 are retrofittable to AP3.0 if you purchase Full Self-Driving.
• Check out this video about Model S seat versions.
• Model 3 has the best audio quality among all Teslas. See the videos here and here.
• Model S/X touchscreen computer (also known as Media Control Unit or MCU) was upgraded to a faster version on 14 Mar 2018. This was already available in all Model 3s.
• Model 3 Performance costs $59,900 - $3750= $56,150 and comes standard with basic Autopilot. You could consider a new Model 3 P. You get Track Mode, no nosecone, 250 kW Supercharger support, more range, AP3.0 hardware, better seats, better audio, faster touchscreen, more headroom, same legroom but you lose the dashboard and trunk space.

 

[iqless]

See the chart here. The average capacity at 41,000 miles is 95.1% and this car has 89.4% left. This car has 5.7% less capacity left than the average at this mileage. There is a known problem with 2015 90 kWh packs. Also, be aware that:

• The plastic nosecone in Model S produced before 12 Apr 2016 is considered old-fashioned by many people. The nosecone instantly communicates to everybody that this is an old model that was discontinued 3 years ago.
• Model 3 Performance has Track Mode but Model S Performance doesn't. Instead, it has Limp Mode. See the discussion here. This is because of weaker battery cooling in Model S/X. See the article here.
• Model 3 supports 250 kW at Supercharger V3 stations Tesla started building. Model S will support 145 kW. However, 90 kWh packs that have heavy degradation are limited to 90 kW Supercharging based on what people are reporting. I expect Tesla to switch Model S/X production to 2170 cells most likely at the end of Sep 2019. See the news article here. This will enable 250 kW Supercharger V3 support for Model S/X produced after 25 Sep 2019.
• Check out the range table here. What the car displays is not the range you get at highway speeds. For example, P90D with 21" wheels has 226 miles range at 75 mph when new. That means because of degradation, this car has 226*0.894= 202 miles range at 75 mph at 100% charge. However, for day to day driving, you are supposed to charge to 90% instead of 100%. That means your daily range will be 0.9*202= 182 miles at 75 mph in summer. However, in winter you will lose between 15-30% range depending on how harsh winters are where you live. If we assume 20% winter loss, that leaves you with 0.8*182= 145 miles for day to day driving.
• Teslas produced before 28 Mar 2019 have Autopilot 2.5 hardware. After that, production switched to AP3.0. There is a huge difference between these versions. AP3.0 is 16 times more powerful. See the video here.
• Model 3 Performance costs $59,900 - $3750= $56,150 and comes standard with basic Autopilot. You could consider a new Model 3 P.

Thank you for all this information, it's excellent.

I knew there was something wrong with 10% battery degrad at 41,000 miles, and apparently I was more or less right by saying it should be 5% instead.

About the nosecone - well, a Model S refresh is apparently coming soon, so the new nose will also be considered old by then.

I unfortunately can't do Model 3 (or any new custom Tesla). Because of where I live, I can only supercharge, and having to pay for supercharging would basically mean I'd have to 'pay for gas' all the time, which defeats one of the purposes for EV driving. I did consider Model 3 very seriously until I remembered that fact. A new car (instead of used) that can do 3.2 sec 0-60 (instead of like 2.8... still super fast) with updated tech and higher range for actually cheaper sounds like an excellent deal. but I can't get over having to pay every time I charge.

I live in NC so the winters aren't very harsh. I also have no commute, which is why range isn't such a huge deal for me.

 

[Troy]

Supercharging costs $0.28 per kWh (source). For example, Model 3 P would cost 0.28*78.3= $21.92 to fully charge and you would get 296 miles range assuming 65 mph (source). That means $21.92*1000/296= $74 per 1000 miles or $740 per 10,000 miles. You could make a calculation for lifetime ownership based on that. Good luck

Edit: P3D with 18" isn't available anymore so I changed the calculation.

 

[iqless]

With a car that can do 35-45 mpg (most cars) my cost per mile comes to about 5-6 cents. Which is less than what supercharging a Model 3 P costs (6.5 cents). I just can't reconcile myself with the fact that I'll have to pay supercharging prices for every mile I drive, and actually pay more for 'gas' than actual gas cars.

The additional $65 right about negates the price advantage the Model 3 P has over the P90DL over 5 years, not to mention it's a new car and potentially will suffer heavier depreciation, although with how outdated the P90DL is (and is about to be), I am not sure of that last one.

I guess the actual best option is to wait until the Model S refresh, and then try to get a 2018 P100D in the 70k range.

 

[ucmndd]

I believe P90D was 268 miles rated range when new, so if you're at 248 now, that's ~7.5% degradation, not 10 or 11%.

Not unreasonable. If the car is in otherwise good shape and a decent value, I wouldn't have significant reservations based solely on the rated range. You have 4 more years of unlimited mile battery warranty.

 

[St Charles]

I want to say the V1 P90D Model S only had 254mi range. My V2 car had 270mi range when new. I do not recall if V3 cars had more than that?

This could simply be a V1 car.

 

[sorka]

Seems like typical degradation.

You might be interested in this thread: P90DL battery replacement thread.

Typical for a V1 pack but not V3.

 

[scottm]

I also posted in the "ordering/delivery" forum, I apologize for posting it here, but it's quite urgent and I'd like to have as much input into this as possible today and tomorrow (since I'm scheduled to pick the car up on Saturday)

"Upon INSISTING to learn the range at 100% charge of the P90DL I was going to be picking up (after flying to Baltimore) this Saturday, I finally got a sales advisor to go to the lot, look for my car, and tell me what he saw:

245 miles at 99%.

So at best 247-248 on a 100%. This car is from 2015, and has 41,000 miles. Considering it should have been about 270 miles to begin with, this represents just shy of 10% degradation on this, which is I think quite a bit more than average.

I'd heard earlier 90kWh packs had many problems of which rapid degradation was one. Maybe this is that?

I'd love to hear what you guys think of this - should I take delivery, or roll the dice on another P90DL, or get a P85D instead (apparently way better battery packs). I don't take trips all that often to need a huge battery but I also don't want to spend $60,000 on a car and get a badly degraded one.

Or am I completely wrong in that this is a bad amount of degradation, and is this normal?

Thank you!"

The answer is easy: if you're not happy with what you're seeing, which has been revealed to you "just now" what its true full capacity is then don't take delivery of the car.

You are not in love with this specimen. It's one of many. If you feel it is less than it should be, gladly accept a different car.

Keep shopping.