How fo fix all of the problems with Autopilot

[artsci]

Love AP and if not for it I would not have an S! And if I had no complaints, why would I be a TMC member?
Seriously though the back and forth on the Tesla gave me so much info going in that I had no surprises. Thanks TMC. AS green1, mentioned, some original AP abilities were changed mostly due to media pressure and a couple dumb drivers. Sounds like a pretty god case for a "complaint"

artsci, may just be unhappy he does not have AP

I have no interest in AP whatsoever, so I'm not unhappy at all. I posted this tongue in cheek, being humored at all we highly privileged people griping all the time about our 1st world problems, especially at this time of year.

If it's not AP it's something else. It's ironic if not laughable.

 

[green1]

Not really. With iOS, if you don't update, not only will your phone keep annoying you about it, but your apps will slowly start to malfunction, with the only solution being "update your OS".

And what features have been removed from phones that are still within warranty?
I have no problem with software upgrades, I don't even have a problem with mandatory ones. I have a problem with removing functionality that previously existed from a car that's still under warranty.

 

[green1]

I have no interest in AP whatsoever, so I'm not unhappy at all. I posted this tongue in cheek, being humored at all we highly privileged people griping all the time about our 1st world problems, especially at this time of year.

If it's not AP it's something else. It's ironic if not laughable.

Then answer my question from earlier. Is there ANY feature that Tesla could remove from your car that would upset you?
- Access to the 17" screen while in drive?
- The ability to drive over a certain speed (maybe the speed limit of the road your GPS says you're on?)
- Cut your acceleration in half
Use your imagination. Tell me in full honesty that there is NOTHING that Tesla could do to your car that would annoy you. If you can't honestly say that you'd be happy if Tesla removed prominent functionality of your vehicle from you, then you're really being a bit hypocritical criticizing those of us who have actually had this happen to us.

As for "first world problems", If that's your criteria for what you are allowed to complain about, I hope you've never complained about anything in your life. There's always someone who has it worse, that doesn't mean that what we're dealing with doesn't have any merit. If we went by that definition no problem would ever get solved as there's always something "more important" somewhere else.

 

[justg0]

Has anyone given any thought to why Tesla is removing, or I would say changing AP? Do you think someone just wakes up at Tesla one day and says let's screw over our customers and we will make this feature less useful. That's not how good companies operate and I believe Tesla is a good, in fact a great company who cares for their customers.

I have worked at lots of tech companies, big and small and for every product decision, we weigh the pros and cons on how it will effect the users. I am sure Tesla does the same. I am sure they have a very good reason to do what they are doing and I don't believe it is all about making money.

BTW, I just ran into this video:

I am betting Tesla is doing everything they can to make AP and their cars safer and that's why you will continue to see changes.

 

[green1]

Tesla is doing it because they feel that the PR associated with crashes while on autopilot is more of a problem than potentially pissed off customers who aren't likely to do anything about it anyway. Especially because they have zero competition right now.

Honestly, I don't care why they are doing it, I only care that they are. It's immoral, illegal, and it needs to stop. I own the car, they don't. They had their chance to decide what features it would have, and that was BEFORE they sold it to me, not after. If I were to break in to your house and steal things, would you care what my motivation was? You'd just want me to a) stop, and b) return what was stolen. (You'd probably also want me punished, but that's a different discussion from what we've had here so far)

 

[drklain]

For what it is worth, technically Tesla has never delivered autopilot to any customer and thus are not taking things away. Despite what posters on this forum are saying, Tesla sold the car with autopilot hardware (either 1.0 or 2.0) and said that the software was in development and (in marketing materials) what the anticipated capability would be. The autopilot software delivered to date has always been flagged as "Beta" meaning it is an in-development version which customers are being allowed to use/test, but is not the final version. As Beta software, it is to be expected that the software is being tested and refined based on the results of that testing. That also means that capabilities (such as ability to go to any speed or whatever) could be removed in subsequent test versions as well as the final version and Tesla has NOT reneged on the delivery because the final capability (whenever that happens) is the final suite and capability of the software. Now the fact of the matter is that customers paid to have the hardware suite installed and enabled allowing them to use/test the Beta software in advance of the final release.

Realize many on this thread may disagree with that analysis, but from a software development and release perspective, I believe this is exactly where things sit and Tesla is not reneging on any promises/offers by updating and further refining software which has never been accessible to Tesla owners as anything other than Beta.

 

[artsci]

Then answer my question from earlier. Is there ANY feature that Tesla could remove from your car that would upset you?
- Access to the 17" screen while in drive?
- The ability to drive over a certain speed (maybe the speed limit of the road your GPS says you're on?)
- Cut your acceleration in half
Use your imagination. Tell me in full honesty that there is NOTHING that Tesla could do to your car that would annoy you. If you can't honestly say that you'd be happy if Tesla removed prominent functionality of your vehicle from you, then you're really being a bit hypocritical criticizing those of us who have actually had this happen to us.

As for "first world problems", If that's your criteria for what you are allowed to complain about, I hope you've never complained about anything in your life. There's always someone who has it worse, that doesn't mean that what we're dealing with doesn't have any merit. If we went by that definition no problem would ever get solved as there's always something "more important" somewhere else.

You got me

 

[justg0]

Welcome to the new world! This is not your typical car where you buy it and it remains the same. This is like your computer or phone and Tesla is going to continuously update it. There are new boundaries that are going to get tested. I understand what you are trying to say. I bought A, but now it is not A, it is A1. But that's how the software world works. Things change and update. I am sure Tesla lawyers are making sure they have all this covered, if not, you can try sue them.

 

[Andyw2100]

Has anyone given any thought to why Tesla is removing, or I would say changing AP? Do you think someone just wakes up at Tesla one day and says let's screw over our customers and we will make this feature less useful.<SNIP>

I have worked at lots of tech companies, big and small and for every product decision, we weigh the pros and cons on how it will effect the users. I am sure Tesla does the same. I am sure they have a very good reason to do what they are doing and I don't believe it is all about making money.

That's all well and good, but removing functionality after the cars are sold should be off the table with respect to changes being considered.

See the following thread for another example of this taking place:

Pack Performance and Launch Mode Limits

 

[green1]

Welcome to the new world!

There is nothing "new" about the world. Just because the technology now exists to make it easier to screw customers over does not validate the behaviour, and it is up to us to stand our ground and make sure companies know it.

If I took my old car to a mechanic, and it came back with a feature missing, it wouldn't be acceptable. This is no different. just because it's software doesn't magically make it ok to screw customers over.

 

[u00mem9]

Come on Elon! Give us some more smug comments about how the old bad car companies are about to become extinct by the amazing power of visionary Silicon Valley.

They are creating new things so fast that squares like the legal dept. and test & validation engineers just slow them down!

Oops. Actually, now that we halfway understand what we are doing...those uncool risk analysis guys make a lot more sense.

 

[drklain]

Your assumption is that they are taking stuff away from the product they sold you. Their legal position is that they are refining the Beta software they are allowing you to use as they finalize the product you bought (knowing that right now what had been demo'd to you was Beta software and not the final product). Yeah it sucks when there is a loss of functionality compared to what you've seen in the test stuff, but that happens all the time in the software development world. What's unusual in this case is that the company is allowing all of its customers to use Beta software in advance.

Personally I don't think Tesla is trying to screw anyone. I think that as they have collected more test data, they have determined that the hardware and software isn't capable of doing some of the things (driving over 90 mph or more than the speed limit) and still provide appropriate safety margins so they are adjusting the settings and feature set. Welcome to the world of software testing and developing for critical control software.

An analog might be if you bought an iPhone with the pre-release version of the next iOS installed (and yes, this is not a perfect analogy). Apple would tell you that this was the Beta version of the iOS software and that they are still updating it regularly as they lock down features. You expressly acknowledge that this device is equipped with Beta software and is subject to updating. They add some, they remove some before the final comes out. The big difference is that you are paying for the iphone with this iOS version in advance of final release and that the manufacturer has had it sitting in Beta for years....

 

[justg0]

Your assumption is that they are taking stuff away from the product they sold you. Their legal position is that they are refining the Beta software they are allowing you to use as they finalize the product you bought (knowing that right now what had been demo'd to you was Beta software and not the final product). Yeah it sucks when their is a loss of functionality compared to what you've seen in the test stuff, but that happens all the time in the software development world. What's unusual in this case is that the company is allowing all of its customers to use Beta software in advance.

Personally I don't think Tesla is trying to screw anyone. I think that as they have collected more test data, they have determined that the hardware and software isn't capable of doing some of the things (driving over 90 mph or more than the speed limit) and still provide appropriate safety margins so they are adjusting the settings and feature set. Welcome to the world of software testing and developing for critical control software.

An analog might be if you bought an iPhone with the pre-release version of the next iOS installed (and yes, this is not a perfect analogy). Apple would tell you that this was the Beta version of the iOS software and that they are still updating it regularly as they lock down features. You expressly acknowledge that this device is equipped with Beta software and is subject to updating. They add some, they remove some before the final comes out. The big difference is that you are paying for the iphone with this iOS version in advance of final release and that the manufacturer has had it sitting in Beta for years....

Exactly! If you can't deal with this, don't buy a tesla.

 

[green1]

Exactly! If you can't deal with this, don't buy a tesla.

And if you can't deal with people sticking up for their consumer rights, move somewhere that doesn't have consumer protection laws.

 

[Canuck]

In my opinion, the vast majority of Tesla owners are more than happy with Tesla's AP. A few weeks ago I was leaving a business meeting and heading to the parking lot with a colleague. He was going to his Mercedes and he saw me going to my Tesla. He said his wife has the same car and the lane keeping on the Tesla is far superior than on his MB. That's how the vast majority of people view Tesla's AP1.0. Nothing compares to it. With AP2.0 it's only going to get better. The positive so outweighs the negative that the few AP complainers barely register on Tesla's radar, at least in my view.

There is nothing "new" about the world.

Yes there is and it's exactly what you're complaining about.

Or they could just put it back the way they sold it, and move on.

How do you suggest they do that if the changes have been mandated by the NHTSA?

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM533397/INIM-PE16007-64338.pdf

And if you don't like people sticking up for their consumer rights, move somewhere that doesn't have consumer protection laws.

Since you gave the toaster analogy, here's mine: My toaster has a potential to burn my house down, so it gets recalled for a fix, but it takes longer to toast my bread when I get it back, and I go to the consumer protection branch to complain. It's immoral, illegal and unethical I tell them!

 

[u00mem9]

Exactly! If you can't deal with this, don't buy a tesla.

If they keep it up, don't worry...no one will.

You're not being honest about this situation if you are implying most buyers thought autopilot would be hobbled like this or using launch mode will cause your car to lose 40hp forever. If this behavior was simply part of a brave new world we should all welcome, Tesla wouldn't need to sneak around and pull this sh*t with poorly documented updates.

 

[green1]

How do you suggest they do that if the changes have been mandated by the NHTSA?
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM533397/INIM-PE16007-64338.pdf

Well... someone could start by showing that the NHTSA has done so (which you haven't done) because the NHTSA isn't exactly shy about saying things like that, and in fact, to violate the consumer protection laws that Tesla is doing, they would NEED to have an explicit order from a government agency.

And second, they could screw right off, because the NHTSA has no jurisdiction over me or my car as I don't live in the USA.

 

[justg0]

And if you can't deal with people sticking up for their consumer rights, move somewhere that doesn't have consumer protection laws.

You know. Go ahead sue Tesla rather than arguing this here. The people there are not dumb. They have very smart lawyers who would have made sure that they can do this.

You can always wait for Volvo to release their AP when it is "perfect" and in that case you won't have to deal with changes.

 

[green1]

Yes there is and it's exactly what you're complaining about.

There's nothing new about false advertising, failing to honour contract or warranty commitments, fraud, and theft.
Software has made it easier, but it hasn't changed the nature of the crime.

 

[green1]

You know. Go ahead sue Tesla rather than arguing this here. The people there are not dumb. They have very smart lawyers who would have made sure that they can do this.

You can always wait for Volvo to release their AP when it is "perfect" and in that case you won't have to deal with changes.

Lawsuits are a last resort, not a first option. I'm working my way through the process. We'll see if it gets as far as a lawsuit. I hope it won't need to.

Lawyers are always right, we know that. This is why nobody has ever lost in court, because their lawyers always get it right the first time. Especially companies that have removed features after sale... oh wait... that didn't go so well for Sony when they tried it... I guess Tesla has better lawyers though...

As for "arguing here"... if you don't like the argument. Don't respond. it's really that simple. The discussion doesn't bother me in the least. If it offends you, nobody is forcing you to read and respond.