How Tesla Charges Idle Fees?

[bob_p]

Um, no. Because the RATE of charge delivered is highly variable, depending on the Supercharger and whether there's a vehicle charging in a paired stall. A per-minute cost while Supercharging thus punishes many who would now be paying for something (e.g., the full 105kW maximum rate) that they may or may not get. And yes, I know about tapering, but that's a different matter not related to maximum charge rates.

Any policy Tesla implements is going to have problems.

If Tesla encourages drivers to charge only what they need and then leave - that should reduce the time where a car connected to the 2nd charging station would be getting the slower charging rate.

Under a simpler per-minute fee plan, you'd also have the option to wait to connect until the other car is finished using the charger - and then get the fastest charging rate, at the lowest cost.

Of course, that creates a situation where people could pull up to a charging spot - sit there - and only connect when the other car disconnects, effectively blocking that spot for use by anyone else.

For any policy Tesla creates, it will be easy to come up with cases where people could subvert the policy (such as the above suggestion of setting the charging limit low, and then moving it slowly upward every few minutes to avoid paying the idle parking fee).

That's why I'd recommend keeping the policy as simple as possible - and Tesla can then focus on closing whatever loopholes they create with the policy - such as implementing a better way to monitor charging station availability than which chargers are currently connected to a car (video monitoring of the SC stalls?).

 

[bob_p]

I could make an argument that it is explicitly covered. My purchase agreement states the following:

View attachment 206995

Below is my "Vehicle Configuration" from the purchase agreement.

View attachment 206996

The description of the standard features of the car on their website contains the following:

View attachment 206997
Based on those facts I wouldn't have any trouble making an argument to a court that the purchase agreement expressly provided that my car would be "Supercharger Enabled" and that the description of what that meant on Tesla's website was that it would include free Supercharging for long distance travel. The website doesn't go into more detail as to what "long distance travel" means, so the fact-finder (either the jury or the judge depending on whether you have a jury trial or not) would have to decide what that meant (Tesla certainly wouldn't be able to unilaterally make that determination). The rest I think a court would accept as being the agreement that was expressly reached and documented in the purchase agreement.

My Purchase Agreement has a clause labelled "Entire Agreement" which basically states that the purchase agreement is the only agreement I have with Tesla and that "prior agreements, oral statements, negotiations, communications or representations about the vehicle sold under this agreement are superseded by this agreement". This is standard boilerplate agreement that basically negates any marketing claims you may have seen on Tesla's website about use of the supercharger network.

Has anyone received anything in writing (likely signed by someone in authority at Tesla) that provides specific terms and conditions for use of the supercharger network? Without that, at least from a legal standpoint, Tesla may be free to impose whatever changes they want to use of the SC network.

As Tesla begins to impose fees and restrictions of use of the SC network, it seems likely they will develop specific T&Cs and require owners to agree to them. It's actually surprising Tesla has provided the SC network for so long, without having any written policies in place...

 

[bkp_duke]

Based on those facts I wouldn't have any trouble making an argument to a court that the purchase agreement expressly provided that my car would be "Supercharger Enabled" and that the description of what that meant on Tesla's website was that it would include free Supercharging for long distance travel. The website doesn't go into more detail as to what "long distance travel" means, so the fact-finder (either the jury or the judge depending on whether you have a jury trial or not) would have to decide what that meant (Tesla certainly wouldn't be able to unilaterally make that determination). The rest I think a court would accept as being the agreement that was expressly reached and documented in the purchase agreement.

I think you've never actually been to court and seen something like this argued out. Tesla's argument that say "supercharging for life does not include free parking or infringement upon the rights of others to supercharge after your session is complete" would be pretty compelling to sway a jury.

 

[sdorn]

My Purchase Agreement has a clause labelled "Entire Agreement" which basically states that the purchase agreement is the only agreement I have with Tesla and that "prior agreements, oral statements, negotiations, communications or representations about the vehicle sold under this agreement are superseded by this agreement". This is standard boilerplate agreement that basically negates any marketing claims you may have seen on Tesla's website about use of the supercharger network.

Has anyone received anything in writing (likely signed by someone in authority at Tesla) that provides specific terms and conditions for use of the supercharger network? Without that, at least from a legal standpoint, Tesla may be free to impose whatever changes they want to use of the SC network.

As Tesla begins to impose fees and restrictions of use of the SC network, it seems likely they will develop specific T&Cs and require owners to agree to them. It's actually surprising Tesla has provided the SC network for so long, without having any written policies in place...

Yes, that is an integration clause, but if there is an ambiguity in the express terms of the document (for example a list of vehicle features that you paid for without describing each feature in detail) then a court would still look to parole evidence to determine what the parties had actually agreed to in the contract. In this case, Tesla's website has more detailed descriptions of each feature which purchasers rely on when placing an order, so it is a no-brainer for the court to take those descriptions into account when interpreting the purchase agreement.

 

[sdorn]

I think you've never actually been to court and seen something like this argued out. Tesla's argument that say "supercharging for live does not include free parking or infringement upon the rights of others to supercharge after your session is complete" would be pretty compelling to sway a jury.

You are talking about something completely different from what I said. All I said was that I could make an argument that free supercharging for long distance travel is expressly included in the purchase agreement. I don't think that has anything to do with the idle fees or free parking. I was responding to the comment above that said no one could make the argument free supercharging is included in the purchase agreement.

 

[bkp_duke]

You are talking about something completely different from what I said. All I said was that I could make an argument that free supercharging for long distance travel is expressly included in the purchase agreement. I don't think that has anything to do with the idle fees or free parking. I was responding to the comment above that said no one could make the argument free supercharging is included in the purchase agreement.

My mistake, we are in agreement then.

 

[bob_p]

My purchase agreement only states that my car has "supercharger hardware' and doesn't list a cost for the hardware in the vehicle price.

Your agreement is newer and states that supercharging is enabled.

Neither statement provides any information on how the supercharger capability will be used. And even Tesla's marketing statement of "free long distance" charging can be interpreted very broadly - it doesn't state "unlimited free charging", as long as Tesla is providing at least some of the "long distance" charging for free, they're meeting their marketing statement.

As the number of owners increases, as with other companies, the tendency is for companies to implement more and more detailed legal agreements with customers.

Tesla has been operating the SC network without any official, written, policies - and it seems inevitable we'll see some official T&C's at some point, possibly after someone has taken them to court to resolve what is actually provided in the vehicle purchase.

 

[Pruitt]

Tesla has been operating the SC network without any official, written, policies...

I'm pretty sure that's not true. For their supercharger network to function and not be totally chaotic, they would almost have to have some sort of written policies in place. They just don't share them with US.

 

[CUBldr97]

Green1 can't wait to see your court date... you are what is referred to as a SEA lawyer... good luck. All talk no proof...

 

[AudubonB]

I've sat in my chair reading this ENTIRE thread for far longer than five minutes after it was fully charged (which was at about post #1).

I'm billing Kermit $.40/m for the overage.

 

[drklain]

Green1 can't wait to see your court date... you are what is referred to as a SEA lawyer... good luck. All talk no proof...

Your comment brings a smile to this old Sailor....

 

[GWord]

I could make an argument that it is explicitly covered. My purchase agreement states the following:

View attachment 206995

Below is my "Vehicle Configuration" from the purchase agreement.

View attachment 206996

The description of the standard features of the car on their website contains the following:

View attachment 206997
Based on those facts I wouldn't have any trouble making an argument to a court that the purchase agreement expressly provided that my car would be "Supercharger Enabled" and that the description of what that meant on Tesla's website was that it would include free Supercharging for long distance travel. The website doesn't go into more detail as to what "long distance travel" means, so the fact-finder (either the jury or the judge depending on whether you have a jury trial or not) would have to decide what that meant (Tesla certainly wouldn't be able to unilaterally make that determination). The rest I think a court would accept as being the agreement that was expressly reached and documented in the purchase agreement.

Great response; I stand corrected! My agreement is completely silent on supercharging, despite having it enabled.

 

[drklain]

Agreed. Was unaware there were agreements with that language.

That said, I still don't think this means what @green1 is saying -- that he can't be charged a dime for parking at a supercharger or doing whatever he wants there after the car has finished charging (but I think pretty much everyone in this thread disagrees with his interpretation...).

 

[sdorn]

Agreed. Was unaware there were agreements with that language.

That said, I still don't think this means what @green1 is saying -- that he can't be charged a dime for parking at a supercharger or doing whatever he wants there after the car has finished charging (but I think pretty much everyone in this thread disagrees with his interpretation...).

Yes, I think a court would agree that Tesla is entitled to take reasonable steps to manage use of the supercharger network, including in order to deal with congestion so that all owners are able to utilize the service which was included with the purchase of their car.

 

[bob_p]

It seems inevitable Tesla will have to get owners to agree to terms & conditions (T&Cs) for use of the supercharger network and acknowledgement of potential fees and restrictions.

When that happens, the easiest way for Tesla to do that would be to pop up a T&Cs window on the console display, and require the owner to confirm acceptance, like most software products.

Tesla could even collect credit card information at that time, requiring a valid credit card be on file for potential charges, which is pretty standard practice for any service where charges may be incurred.

What's surprising is that Tesla's lawyers haven't addressed this issue before now.

 

[4SUPER9]

It seems inevitable Tesla will have to get owners to agree to terms & conditions (T&Cs) for use of the supercharger network and acknowledgement of potential fees and restrictions.

When that happens, the easiest way for Tesla to do that would be to pop up a T&Cs window on the console display, and require the owner to confirm acceptance, like most software products.

Tesla could even collect credit card information at that time, requiring a valid credit card be on file for potential charges, which is pretty standard practice for any service where charges may be incurred.

What's surprising is that Tesla's lawyers haven't addressed this issue before now.

I am confident the attorneys did weigh in. My guess is that anyone who protests a fee will likely have it waived. As far as the rest of your post, I agree. Most likely we will see some type of formal notification and credit card input.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

I am confident the attorneys did weigh in. My guess is that anyone who protests a fee will likely have it waived. As far as the rest of your post, I agree. Most likely we will see some type of formal notification and credit card input.

You should now be seeing the credit card form on your My Tesla page. It showed up on mine this morning.

 

[4SUPER9]

Yep. They now ask for a credit card to be saved. Completely optional at this point. Probably mandatory for new purchases as of 1/1/16, with a gradual wrap up to capture the current owners.

 

[Joetnr1]

If you have a problem with this, you're most likely leaving your car at the SC after it's charged on the reg. Go out and move it like the rest of us. So many times in SoCal I've waited for a charger while I see multiple Tesla's with sun visors on the windshield, obviously people who park their car there and go to work. Something needed to happen here and I find this totally fair.

 

[bob_p]

Assuming Tesla requires owners to agree to terms and conditions in order to use the supercharger network (and likely require a registered credit card), owners will be aware they could be charged by staying connected after charging.

Where they have opened a large can of worms is waiving the fee if there are other charger stalls available. That could create a customer support burden for Tesla with owners calling to request the fees be waived because they thought there was an available stall - or they saw some period while their car was parked - when they saw a stall was open. It will be much simpler not to have any exceptions - if you're connected - you get charged.