HP for AWD vs P

[Swampgator]

This is driving me nuts. Every review of the 3PD states the car has 450 hp. According to the EPA the AWD has 450hp and the P has 480hp. Does anyone know where this information is coming from? The AWD has a total of 333kw according again to EPA. Tesla does not list the numbers anywhere on their site or documents.
This would be helpful. Every other OEM lists HP for all of their models.

 

[P85_DA]

I don’t trust HP numbers from Tesla ..I was one of the guys who bought a “691hp” P85D early on ...

 

[Kermee]

Autoweek.com has the following numbers:

LR RWD: 271 hp
LR Dual: 346 hp
LR Performance (Dual): 450 hp

Definitely different from the EPA website, but the above numbers make more sense.

Source: Tesla Model 3 Performance First Drive: The Best Tesla Yet? — July 23rd, 2018 [Autoweek.com]

 

[Knightshade]

Autoweek.com has the following numbers:

LR RWD: 271 hp
LR Dual: 346 hp
LR Performance (Dual): 450 hp

Definitely different from the EPA website, but the above numbers make more sense.

Source: Tesla Model 3 Performance First Drive: The Best Tesla Yet? — July 23rd, 2018 [Autoweek.com]

I find the EPA numbers (450/480 for AWD and P) somewhat more credible in that the trap speeds in the 1/4 mile are nearly identical between them, while the gulf between the RWD and the other 2 is quite large.

This reinforces the idea that they're just artificially limiting the performance of the AWD via software, while not doing so on the P, since both cars have the same batteries and the same motors.

 

[Daniel in SD]

This is driving me nuts. Every review of the 3PD states the car has 450 hp. According to the EPA the AWD has 450hp and the P has 480hp. Does anyone know where this information is coming from? The AWD has a total of 333kw according again to EPA. Tesla does not list the numbers anywhere on their site or documents.
This would be helpful. Every other OEM lists HP for all of their models.

HP is almost the same between AWD and P as indicated by 1/4 mile trap speeds. Just having a peak horsepower number is pretty useless when you have a fixed ratio transmission. The shape of the horsepower curve is much more important and is why the P can go 0-60 one second faster than the AWD.

 

[Krash]

The Performance 3 has a higher torque setting, hence it is one second quickness difference. It is likely that the power at every speed after the non P AWD limit is reached is the same (per the same motors and same battery voltage and amperage). Unfortunately Tesla turned off the streaming API and encrypted the diagnostic port or we'd have real comparable data.

 

[Nocturnal]

This reinforces the idea that they're just artificially limiting the performance of the AWD via software, while not doing so on the P, since both cars have the same batteries and the same motors.

I was wondering if that was the case. Profit motive aside from locking down something with just software, the extra wear and tear will definitely cost Tesla more in warranty claims.

 

[Kermee]

I believe there is an upgraded inverter too on top of the higher-binned motors, which we all surmised from Elon's tweet saying it's the same motors that have just been tested twice as long at a higher power output during QC. I'm 99% the batteries are exactly the same between the P and LR.

 

[Daniel in SD]

The argument against there being upgraded inverter is that 5.1s/3.5s = 1.46. Meaning that the P only has ~50% more power between 0 and 60mph. Couldn't all that power be provided by the front motor? Also the rear motors of the P and LR are rated for exactly the same peak power.
Maybe the AWD has a downgraded inverter. That would make a lot more sense.

 

[timk225]

The performance numbers between the P, AWD, and RWD are being kept apart in software so you'll be motivated to give tesla MORE MONEY.

"Speed's expensive, how fast you want to go?"

 

[Kermee]

The argument against there being upgraded inverter is that 5.1s/3.5s = 1.46. Meaning that the P only has ~50% more power between 0 and 60mph. Couldn't all that power be provided by the front motor? Also the rear motors of the P and LR are rated for exactly the same peak power.
Maybe the AWD has a downgraded inverter. That would make a lot more sense.

Good point. Actually, I'm wondering now that you got me thinking... Maybe it is the exact same physical inverter and it's just software limited too. I wouldn't put it past Tesla that too would be the case.

 

[Knightshade]

I believe there is an upgraded inverter too on top of the higher-binned motors, which we all surmised from Elon's tweet saying it's the same motors that have just been tested twice as long at a higher power output during QC. I'm 99% the batteries are exactly the same between the P and LR.

The inverter is part of the drive unit.

The entire drive unit, per Elons binning tweet, is what is lot sorted.

Same motor, same inverter, since they're both inside the drive units being binned.

Not to mention it's a lot simpler and cheaper from a manufacturing perspective, service perspective, and a supply chain one not to have different inverters.

Software limiters are essentially free to the company.

 

[Daniel in SD]

The inverter is part of the drive unit.

The entire drive unit, per Elons binning tweet, is what is lot sorted.

Same motor, same inverter, since they're both inside the drive units being binned.

Not to mention it's a lot simpler and cheaper from a manufacturing perspective, service perspective, and a supply chain one not to have different inverters.

Software limiters are essentially free to the company.

Sorted between LR and P. He never said anything about AWD. They're probably all exactly the same though.

 

[boriszima]

Good thread, i wonder why while most car manufactures pride themselves on horse power and Engine size, Tesla is staying away from those metrics.

 

[Knightshade]

Sorted between LR and P. He never said anything about AWD. They're probably all exactly the same though.

actually he never said anything about LR either.

He just said "performance drive units" are lot sorted.

Implying both front and rear are since he didn't say "rear performance DUs" (or front ones)

 

[PhaseWhite]

I don’t trust HP numbers from Tesla ..I was one of the guys who bought a “691hp” P85D early on ...

I'm also in this camp. The only way to answer this question is to get these cars on the dyno. Ideally an AWD and P on the same Dyno with same wheel configuration to isolate those variables.

I just bumped the Dyno thread here: So...has anyone dyno'ed a P3D yet?

As others have posted it's pretty obvious most all wheel drive cars should be capable of the P3D output, with 2 motors given the horsepower the RWD has been dynod at (330HP at the wheels). The P3D is a margin grab and artificial segmentation similar to what Intel has done for years now with their consumer CPUs which are all based on the same die, but different binning and with features turned off depending on the product.

I'd also wager the drive unit + inverters are not the limit to making more power, the battery BMS limits are. 1.5 * 330HP would be closer to 500 Wheel horsepower

 

[KenF]

 

[diamond.g]

I wanted to dyno my AWD. I couldn’t find a shop in the local area that has experience doing Tesla’s though.

 

[Nocturnal]

As others have posted it's pretty obvious most all wheel drive cars should be capable of the P3D output, with 2 motors given the horsepower the RWD has been dynod at (330HP at the wheels). The P3D is a margin grab and artificial segmentation similar to what Intel has done for years now with their consumer CPUs which are all based on the same die, but different binning and with features turned off depending on the product.

In their defense, the extra output and presumably wear and tear on other components will definitely result in more warranty claims to Tesla. That isn't too different than tuning changes in ICE cars. If I can run a new program and boost my HP by 100 on a turbo ICE most wouldn't call it out as an artificial limitation.

I wanted to dyno my AWD. I couldn’t find a shop in the local area that has experience doing Tesla’s though.

Why would that matter?

 

[diamond.g]

In their defense, the extra output and presumably wear and tear on other components will definitely result in more warranty claims to Tesla. That isn't too different than tuning changes in ICE cars. If I can run a new program and boost my HP by 100 on a turbo ICE most wouldn't call it out as an artificial limitation.


Why would that matter?

I guess it probably shouldn’t. Maybe I’ll give them a try next weekend. This one is potentially a wash with all the rain in the area.