HW2.5 capabilities

[electronblue]

If Tesla starts retrofitting one group, there is a legal argument to be made they are acknowledging ”the promise” and need to follow through for all.

This is indeed an argument the U.S. uses for the rental of Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Castro’s government cashed the first check, thus confirming the contract.

 

[verygreen]

No way did that relatively low price cover the work needed to do the change for such a small group of people

gray market people do it for less I think.

re the retrofit, we'll see. I am not a big believer in retrofits, but the only cars to make sense retrofitting are s/x hw2.5 cars. So it's entirely possible they would retrofit those, but not hw 2.0 and not model3s and consequences be damned. But we'll see.

 

[electronblue]

gray market people do it for less I think.

Sure but my point is such a battery retrofit may well have required more work from the manufacturer regarding regulatory, testing and all that.

re the retrofit, we'll see. I am not a big believer in retrofits, but the only cars to make sense retrofitting are s/x hw2.5 cars. So it's entirely possible they would retrofit those, but not hw 2.0 and not model3s and consequences be damned. But we'll see.

Let’s not go around in circles but agree to disagree on the rest, but specifically: Why do you think the retrofit does not make sense for HW2 cars (but does for HW2.5)?

 

[Seattle Tom]

I think the legal liability to Tesla is being vastly understated here.

Even today they are advertising Full Self Driving (albeit in limited form with potentially more “outs” in the language) on their website. But the order form for the cars who bought this feature prior to a few months ago was MUCH MORE specific.

It not only requires Tesla upgrade the car to meet the commitment, but one could also make the argument it requires Tesla to buy back the car if the customer can demonstrate they purchased it because of that feature. In other words, a simple refund for only the FSD component is probably not defensible. (It could be defensible of course depending on the class action scope and the court, but I think it’s not.)

I think Tesla has a huge liability here, one that they don’t recognize in their financials, and it’s not an “external promise Elon made on Twitter.” It’s part of the feature-set for the vehicle.

The new version of FSD is much more limited in scope and likely achievable for HW2 or 2.5, which I think is why they modified the language (i.e., they have no intention of upgrading all the new FSD orders in the last few weeks at the lower price to HW3 because they can meet the new, limited definition of FSD with HW2 or 2.5). But commitments made for previous orders would not be met by that limited form of FSD.

FSD Description Originally:

 

[im.thatoneguy]

I'm with Tom. They have to retrofit at least AP2.5 to hw3. Go to a judge and say 'I bought this car because it said "has all the hardware to achieve fully self driving" and that's why I bought it and paid $20k more than a comparable company's premium sedan' and you'll almost certainly win. If Tesla argued "Well, we don't think it's that valuable of a feature being advertised." the lawyer will follow up with "then why is it discussed in every quarterly earnings and why is it so prominently featured in your marketing materials?"

The legal exposure is substantially larger than the service center costs.

 

[boonedocks]

I'm with Tom. They have to retrofit at least AP2.5 to hw3. Go to a judge and say 'I bought this car because it said "has all the hardware to achieve fully self driving" and that's why I bought it and paid $20k more than a comparable company's premium sedan' and you'll almost certainly win. If Tesla argued "Well, we don't think it's that valuable of a feature being advertised." the lawyer will follow up with "then why is it discussed in every quarterly earnings and why is it so prominently featured in your marketing materials?"

The legal exposure is substantially larger than the service center costs.

Amend to AP2 to HW3

 

[supratachophobia]

I couldn't stand the response I got there myself. Any time I said anything that could remotely be construed as critical I get voted down into oblivion, even though I'm an owner and simply speaking from experience. Even just stating outright facts gets the same response. Reddit mob mentality is not worth tackling... I just look at the headlines now to pick up news stories and never ever post comments any more.

To be fair to Reddit, I think there is /r/realtesla now and that's actually a good balanced subreddit for owners. Fans with blind allegiance need not apply.

 

[chillaban]

Amend to AP2 to HW3

I agree. The logic is no different for AP2 buyers who read the even stronger wording of EAP/FSD marketed. I don’t care if Tesla dug themselves into a hole by claiming AP2 and AP2.5 are super similar.

 

[verygreen]

Let’s not go around in circles but agree to disagree on the rest, but specifically: Why do you think the retrofit does not make sense for HW2 cars (but does for HW2.5)?

It's just hw2.5 on S/X cars seems to be really straightforward and easy to do, so I really can see where some select few get the retrofits there with great fanfares and hopes up (and perhaps extra FSD purchasers) and then.... everybody else waits forever.

and that's why I bought it and paid $20k more than a comparable company's premium sedan

Excuse me for asking, what other comparable premium BEV sedan for $20k cheaper was there on the market at the time you purchased your Model S?

 

[conman]

To be fair to Reddit, I think there is /r/realtesla now and that's actually a good balanced subreddit for owners. Fans with blind allegiance need not apply.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

 

[iTech]

Tesla really screwed themselves over by releasing dashcam and sentry mode.

 

[chillaban]

Excuse me for asking, what other comparable premium BEV sedan for $20k cheaper was there on the market at the time you purchased your Model S?

Hire this man for those Real Chevy ads to figure out obscure JD Power categories that Chevy doesn’t suck at!

 

[zmarty]

To be fair to Reddit, I think there is /r/realtesla now and that's actually a good balanced subreddit for owners. Fans with blind allegiance need not apply.

/r/realtesla is super bearish like /r/teslamotors is super bullish. In no way they are either objective!

 

[supratachophobia]

/r/realtesla is super bearish like /r/teslamotors is super bullish. In no way they are either objective!

Uhh oh, maybe I'm just really cynical....

 

[rnortman]

Excuse me for asking, what other comparable premium BEV sedan for $20k cheaper was there on the market at the time you purchased your Model S?

"Comparable" is in the eye of the comparer. Some people are less interested in BEV than in luxury, performance, and convenience, and I think a point can be made, legally, that Tesla competes directly with Mercedes, BMW, etc. Those companies offer comparable alternatives, for some buyers.

To a BEV enthusiast, it may seem incredible that somebody would actually be weighing a Mercedes S-class on one hand and a Tesla Model S on the other -- they seem so very different to a BEV enthusiast. But not all Tesla buyers -- especially the more recent ones -- are BEV enthusiasts. In particular, many buyers may have come specifically for the promise of full self driving. And then what they get is not "full self driving", but rather "Full Self Driving", if you see my point...

 

[BigD0g]

Tesla really screwed themselves over by releasing dashcam and sentry mode.

Oh, they screwed themselves over as soon as they did 2.0 -> 2.5 just 6 months after release.

 

[J1mbo]

My guess is that refunds will be offered to AP2 owners, and the recently redefined FSD will go to 2.5+ cars without any hardware upgrades.

I would be happy with that, as long as it happens before my AP2.0 car goes back this summer

 

[boonedocks]

My guess is that refunds will be offered to AP2 owners, and the recently redefined FSD will go to 2.5+ cars without any hardware upgrades.

I would be happy with that, as long as it happens before my AP2.0 car goes back this summer

I only disagreed with your post because I will not be okay nor will I settle for that!!

 

[bebbiXpress]

My guess is that refunds will be offered to AP2 owners, and the recently redefined FSD will go to 2.5+ cars without any hardware upgrades.

I would be happy with that, as long as it happens before my AP2.0 car goes back this summer

Refund for what? EAP, FSD or the whole car? Since AP2.0 they promised a car "with all the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver".

 

[croman]

No way a refund would be acceptable unless they also retrofitted for HW3 and gave me the FSD software. They should be giving $1k refunds and early access AND first in line HW3 retrofits. Then maybe I'd not be happy but I wouldn't be aggrieved either. If that bankrupts Tesla, then maybe Elon shouldn't have been so blaise about 'bankwuptcy' earlier. Doing what is right should never mean your company goes under unless you really did a lot wrong.