Hydrogen vs. Battery

[nwdiver]

Here is a really interesting way to transfer hydrogen in huge quantities, as in oil tankers across the ocean. This video goes very deep into this safe, barely flammable hydrogen oil. It's actually in use today commercially.

There goes another argument against hydrogen.

Too bad there's that pesky 30% tax. Physics

 

[arnis]

Here is a really interesting way to transfer hydrogen in huge quantities, as in oil tankers across the ocean. This video goes very deep into this safe, barely flammable hydrogen oil. It's actually in use today commercially.

10kWh of energy per 1kg of H2 for dehydrogenation. 1kg of H2 gives FCEV 100km of range.
Comparable EV requires 17kWh of energy for 100km.
Remarkable results....But that is just to store it in liquid form.
Really safe and "cheap" way to store hydrogen

 

[arnis]

Norway did try to make hydrogen work. People bought FCEV's and two refilling networks have done some work.
And the results are not surprising. 30 minutes of technical stuff (I can verify that technical data is all correct)

 

[Curious George]

Norway did try to make hydrogen work. People bought FCEV's and two refilling networks have done some work.
And the results are not surprising. 30 minutes of technical stuff (I can verify that technical data is all correct)

Who is this guy? Another new "hydrogen expert" trying to get few clicks on youtube?
I spent 6 minutes listening to his rants (more like jibber-jabber) on 6.6M euro subsidy on hydrogen and how road was closed for hours after the station burnt down.
How much subsidy (lost taxes) on the electric cars in Norway?
Did he check the road closures after every Tesla CAR fire? There are hundreds of them.
If he says anything meaningful, please point me to the mark. Or better yet, please just summarize anything meaningful he says.

And ask himto learn about how the world is producing 75B (with a B) kg of hydrogen each year and consuming it safely. Then present to his viewers. That will be something positive.

 

[Saghost]

Who is this guy? Another new "hydrogen expert" trying to get few clicks on youtube?
I spent 6 minutes listening to his rants (more like jibber-jabber) on 6.6M euro subsidy on hydrogen and how road was closed for hours after the station burnt down.
How much subsidy (lost taxes) on the electric cars in Norway?
Did he check the road closures after every Tesla CAR fire? There are hundreds of them.
If he says anything meaningful, please point me to the mark.

And ask himto learn about how the world is producing 75B (with a B) kg of hydrogen each year and consuming it safely. Then present to his viewers. That will be something positive.

If you don't know who TeslaBjorn is, you clearly haven't been paying attention to much that happens around here outside the Hydrogen thread...

 

[Curious George]

[

Too bad there's that pesky 30% tax. Physics

See the video from 17 to 19 minute mark. Your question is already answered. Guess what is the byproduct of a fuel cell stack.

From the video, it seems China is going to use LOHC as the transport medium for its hydrogen infrastructure, which is interesting.

 

[Saghost]

Guess what is the byproduct of a fuel cell stack.

A lot of tears and hot air, isn't it?

 

[nwdiver]

[

See the video from 17 to 19 minute mark. Your question is already answered. Guess what is the byproduct of a fuel cell stack.

From the video, it seems China is going to use LOHC as the transport medium for its hydrogen infrastructure, which is interesting.

Thermal plants produce a lot of extra thermal energy too (hence the name). Wanna guess what percentage is put to a useful purpose and what percentage is just another problem?

Given your attraction to absurdly complex and tremendously inefficient methods of providing energy to move a car... I thought you might enjoy this video. You're welcome

 

[Curious George]

If you don't know who TeslaBjorn is, you clearly haven't been paying attention to much that happens around here outside the Hydrogen thread...

Ah, I see! That name I have heard! Not my fault. He didn't introduce himself in the video.
So a guy named TeslaBjorn is spreading little hydrogen FUD. Why am I not surprised?

 

[nwdiver]

Ah, I see! That name I have heard! Not my fault. He didn't introduce himself in the video.
So a guy named TeslaBjorn is spreading littl ehydrigen FUD. Why am I not surprised?

I think that 'FUD' for FUD is just information. They cancel each other out. MATH!

 

[WannabeOwner]

How much subsidy (lost taxes) on the electric cars in Norway?

Norway has a subsidy policy for zero emission vehicles, so as such Hydrogen and EV get the same subsidy.

Did he check the road closures after every Tesla CAR fire? There are hundreds of them.

You got a list of them? Just the first hundred will do, thanks.

 

[nwdiver]

Looks like the 2021 Mirai still lacks a plug. If it lacks a plug then it's pure FUD.

Seriously... GM made the Volt (IMO one of the best cars in history) turning a FCEV into a PHFCEV is an order of magnitude easier. If the argument is you want to fill quickly when you want to fill quickly. Add ~8kWh to the ~2kWh battery for ~10kWh total and a ~16A charger. How much would that cost at scale? ~$2k? ~$2k on a $50k+ car. It's already an EV. Now you get the best of both worlds. Quick refueling (on the rare occasion you can find H2) AND efficient and convenient home charging for daily use. PLUS you can still use your car when the nearest H2 station is closed for months.

The ONLY rational reason to NOT do this is because the Mirai is supposed to be a distraction not a serious attempt at a successful vehicle. Toyota doesn't WANT thousands of people clamoring for their car. They want to delay the inflection point away from their fools fuel lineup.

 

[S'toon]

Did he check the road closures after every Tesla CAR fire? There are hundreds of them.

Norway has a subsidy policy for zero emission vehicles, so as such Hydrogen and EV get the same subsidy.



You got a list of them? Just the first hundred will do, thanks.

I agree. Please provide a link to the "road closures after every Tesla CAR fire. There are hundreds of them."

Come on. You must have that information at your fingertips.

 

[ohmman]

You must have that information at your fingertips.

That talking point is available at his fingertips, along with others. Data backing it up, perhaps not so much.

 

[Curious George]

If not hundreds, tens for sure! A little google search shows up many. I will post one as a starter.
Rest you have to use google.

Do you think the road below is open to traffic? if you do, then watch the video.
Lots of interesting details in this article against battery fire.
Are electric cars a deathtrap in waiting? Terrifying video shows how hard it is to extinguish a blaze

Anyhow, I think discussing electric car fires here is a digression. I will start looking like an electric car FUDster. But if you insist...

 

[nwdiver]

If not hundreds, tens for sure!

So you're only off by an order of magnitude... I guess that's progress...

 

[ohmman]

I think I understand this thread a lot more after reading this scientific journal:

 

[Curious George]

Ask CT.

Anyway for HFCEV the big questions are about production. How many of these will Toyota give away make? How much money will they lose per vehicle?

OK, I can see how the CT author got to those ridiculous numbers. The current Mirai has 113 kW, 9s 0-60 and 151 hp. But the CT author writes this (from your quoted text):
"Its output is nicely paired to a 113 kW / 115 hp electric "

The facts are quite different from the FUD. Here is by far the most detailed report on Mirai 2 I have seen. Good job autoblog!
2021 Toyota Mirai fuel-cell sedan reveals striking new look

Toyota also says the new Mirai will be more powerful and quieter than today’s car. The current model’s electric motor generates 113 kW or the equivalent of 151 horsepower, and it does 0-60 mph in 9 seconds.

Contrary to CT author's claim, Toyota is also trying to open up the Northeast US market.

When it goes on sale late next year, the 2021 Mirai will probably still be limited to the California market, but Toyota is working to expand that footprint, fighting for infrastructure expansion and grappling with municipal bureaucracies in the Northeast and Pacific Northwest. “We’re close to opening up the Northeast market,” says Kretschmann. “The infrastructure is there, but there are still some regulations we’re dealing with. Transporting hydrogen through Massachusetts, for instance, is still a problem, but we’re working on it.”

I guess the CT author'a mind was so focused on bashing Mirai that it found all opportunities to make biased mistakes. Or he may be a paid agent of electric car companies. Who really knows.

 

[MichaelP90DL]

Hi Darryl,

Not sure if you wanted a response here or on your blog. Actually, your post doesn't seem to say much about hydrogen since it focuses mainly on BEV range versus quick charge.

You may be right, but I'm not sure I buy the premise that "consumer appeal of hydrogen persist so stubbornly." Consumers haven't yet had the opportunity to err... consume (purchase) HFCVs. (Nor many BEVs for that matter.) How can it persist if it doesn't really exist yet? As with most things, left alone the market will decide. The core of "consumer psychology" is how purchases affect their wallets. Given relative expense of HFCVs versus BEVs, consumers that purchase HFCVs would really have to value the idea of the quick-fill.

Moreover, there is not just the cost of the individual vehicles, but the infrastructure required to support them as well. This whole point about the quick-fill capability of HFCVs is moot if there's nowhere to fill them. I haven't done the analysis, but my suspicion is that a hydrogen filling station is more expensive to build than a charging bay.

In your discussion of BEV range versus quick charge, you omit an obvious point of which I'm sure you're well aware. You said, "Enthusiasts will plan lunch stops around the one hour charge during a road trip, but it won't be practical for daily use." Of course most cosumers aren't going on road trips every day, and to me, one of the greatest selling points about BEVs is not having to go to the gas station for "daily use." Starting every day with a full tank, as it were.

With that said, your post seems to favor quick-charge over increased range as a way to reduce battery weight and cost. My feeling is that once consumers are experienced with home charging, they will be willing to pay for range they need so as to benefit from the convenience of not having to stop at a charging station.

Btw, as a physics guy, I love hydrogen. It's the only atom that has a complete solution to Schrodinger's equation (everything else is a perturbation theory expansion on hydrogenic energy levels), and hydrogen fuel cells are an interesting technology. But given alternatives, using hydrogen as a transportation "fuel" isn't that sensible.

Edit: Ok, I went ahead and posted on your blog too.

That reminds me, how's Schrodinger's cat?

 

[WannabeOwner]

If not hundreds, tens for sure!

I agree, definitely 10 Tesla battery fires, maybe 20, definitely not hundreds as you said. And as a percentage-of-fleet then less than ICE fires.

I have two observations:

Battery fire takes time to get going. After first indication there is some time to get out of the car / be rescued. Once the fire gets going it is harder to put out, but the good news is that it is not a fire of the "explosion" type.

Secondly, Tesla has issued a software update which, supposedly, is reducing battery power on some vehicles in order to prevent the chance of fire. If that does turn out to be the case it will mean that monitoring battery health, with software, will provide a route to detect that risk and then corrective action can be taken. Not so easy with a tank of fuel which, if penetrated, is then going to leak.