Hydrogen vs. Battery

[nwdiver]

Unlike cars, airplanes cannot switch to electric or hydrogen propulsion in the short-term. Electrify what can be electrified because that increases how much wind and solar we need. Any H2 we generate first should go towards industrial use, then rocket fuel, then aviation fuel, then seasonal grid storage, then industrial transportation.... then maybe light ground transportation. Using H2 for cars prior to this is counter-productive in the extreme.

 

[scaesare]

Nobody?
Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

You obviously are not interested in the general usage, and are interested in quoting the exception.

You may want to update your knowledge. You are stuck in the last decade. Today they can fill 6-10 cars per hours and some stations have multiple nozzles. Depends how powerful the compressor is.

Interesting, as 6-10 cars/hr means 6-10 minutes per fill, whereas I was responding to your post whew you said:

And many more who care for a comfy luxurious ride or a fast 3-5 minute fill up/

So you are contradicting yourself. Inconsistent much?

 

[miimura]

You obviously are not interested in the general usage, and are interested in quoting the exception.

"You may want to update your knowledge. You are stuck in the last decade. Today they can fill 6-10 cars per hours and some stations have multiple nozzles. Depends how powerful the compressor is."

Interesting, as 6-10 cars/hr means 6-10 minutes per fill, which means 6-10 mins per fill, whereas I was responding to your post whew you said:
"And many more who care for a comfy luxurious ride or a fast 3-5 minute fill up/"

So you are contradicting yourself. Inconsistent much?

He's actually not. There is some additional compression and chilling time before it can fill the next car at full speed. Therefore, the throughput in cars per hour cannot be used to calculate the filling time per car.

 

[scaesare]

He's actually not. There is some additional compression and chilling time before it can fill the next car at full speed. Therefore, the throughput in cars per hour cannot be used to calculate the filling time per car.

Please tell me you aren't suggesting that having to stand around and wait 5 mins for the system to cycle, before you can spend another 5 minutes filling up means that your fueling stop isn't 10 minutes?

And if you reply with "But you might get lucky and hit it when it's already cycled!" then the level if intellectual (dis)honesty in these pro-H2 arguments will become even more apparent.

 

[mblakele]

The distinction between wait time and fill time is hardly matters when there's no fuel available. That happens frequently.

H2 Stations - San Jose just now:

 

[ZsoZso]

A couple of interesting posts over in the investment thread, that would belong to this thread:

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the 2019 Investors' Roundtable

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the 2019 Investors' Roundtable

 

[FutureShock]

Thread reminds me of that line from Mean Girls [paraphrased]:

“Stop trying to make hydrogen happen! Hydrogen isn’t going to happen!!”

 

[ajdelange]

Hydrogen for cars isn't going to happen in my lifetime unless this Ozzie/Israeli scheme pans out but I do hope it will happen at the industrial level. With the cost of solar and wind generated electricity approaching that from new fossile fuel plant the day when fossile fuel plants can be shut down wouldn't be far off. The problem being, of course, that the sun shines most when electricity is needed the least and the wind blows when it blows. What's needed is an economically feasible place to store the energy from the sun and wind and make it available during the duck-neck part of the demand curve. Pumped hydro is fine - in the very few places where geography makes it possible but that obviously isn't the solution. With the latest electrolysis technology pushing 80% (?) energy efficiency it seems that hydrogen might prove to be the "battery" the system needs. I think that there is a fair chance we might see that in my lifetime.

 

[WannabeOwner]

What's needed is an economically feasible place to store the energy from the sun and wind

UK provides a grant for car chargers (e.g. at home), and that now requires the Chargers to be "smart" so that they will, for example, be able to stop/start charging of EVs depending on excess energy. That won't get it back again during duck-neck curve hours, without V2G as well, but it can stop charging of EVs during that time and thus lighten the load ...

Pumped hydro is fine - in the very few places where geography makes it possible

Can raise a weight where geography doesn't lend itself to pumped hydro. Some old / unused mountain funicular railways which originally had two cars counterbalanced, but maybe they have changed that to just one (on a cable) now. Put something heavy on the car and haul it up the mountain when there is excess power. Same principle as vertical-weight of course, excess the infrastructure already in place.

 

[ajdelange]

. Put something heavy on the car and haul it up the mountain when there is excess power.

There was actually a company that was planning to manufacture a system that did exactly this. It hauled gravel up and down a hillside. One of the problems is, of course, that you need a hillside. From their YouTube video the system looked a kluge, made a lot of noise and didn't store that much energy. My reaction was "your'e kidding, no?". With all the mechanical stuff in there I don't think it was that efficient. However I don't dismiss such tech by any means. Hydrogen strikes me as perhaps a better way to do this but time will tell.

 

[WannabeOwner]

One of the problems is, of course, that you need a hillside.

Surely just needs a vertical "lift"? I'm not an engineer, but I presume there is a way to lift a suitably heavy object with hydraulics, one tiny increment at a time, and then letting that weight down, with suitable gearing, can be used to generate some electricity effectively.

 

[Saghost]

Surely just needs a vertical "lift"? I'm not an engineer, but I presume there is a way to lift a suitably heavy object with hydraulics, one tiny increment at a time, and then letting that weight down, with suitable gearing, can be used to generate some electricity effectively.

Hydraulics to lift and then gears to drop is a strange choice - either one could be used for both purposes and there’s no added benefit to using both that I can see.

It’s certainly possibly to build such a device, but I’m not sure it’s cost effective. A 1 kWh storage device with a 1,000 kg weight would have to lift it 367m assuming perfect efficiency (1 kWh = 3.6 MJ, 1 J is 1 kg * m^2 / s^2)

Or I can have about ten kg of battery sitting in a room somewhere.

 

[JRP3]

Or I can have about ten kg of battery sitting in a room somewhere.

On a pulley system that lifts them up and down using an electric motor/generator
Related:

 

[Curious George]

I'm back folks! I got banned out of blue. no message, no reason given.
Probably some nit picker reported my post or something. That wikipedia list of Tesla fires is hardly "comprehensive".
I browsed through it. It doesn't even have the incident I cited earlier, where tesla claimed someone shot a bullet through its battery from inside the car!

Anyway, I'm here to answer your questions, not dwell on electric car fires!

Please tell me you aren't suggesting that having to stand around and wait 5 mins for the system to cycle, before you can spend another 5 minutes filling up means that your fueling stop isn't 10 minutes?

And if you reply with "But you might get lucky and hit it when it's already cycled!" then the level if intellectual (dis)honesty in these pro-H2 arguments will become even more apparent.

So, your argument is that no one is using these stations, yet the likely situation is when someone arrives, he will need 5-7 minutes for pressure build up? That's nonsense. The 5-7 minute wait is only if there are back to back fill-ups of 5-6 cars. And as always, depends on the station design. Compressor power and capacity of high pressure chamber (aka buffer) being two important factors.
Just today I filled up about 5 kg (yes, I was down to 0) right after a Mirai that filled 3.5 kg and my wait time was.... (surprise).. ZERO!

By your logic, shall we add the wait times at electric chargers on busy weekends to the charging time?

 

[ohmman]

Just today I filled up 5 kg (yes, I was down to 0) right after a Mirai that filled 3.5 kg and my wait time was.... (surprise).. ZERO!

I'm sorry you had to leave your house to fuel up. I hope it wasn't too inconvenient.

 

[Curious George]

I'm sorry you had to leave your house to fuel up. I hope it wasn't too inconvenient.

Don't feel sorry about me! I was in a long comfy trip. I underestimated the range, as the hills took up little more power than I thought.
But a 5 minute refueling stop is no big deal. Won't do these trips in any electric car, unless, I get one with 1000 miles or more range.

Side note: 0 range just means 'reserve'. It can drive many miles with 0 range.

 

[Curious George]

So Renault and Street scooter (the electric van maker) are realizing that combining fuel cell and battery makes perfect sense.
Very little weight or cost added. Best of both worlds indeed! Cheers.
Renault vans with fuel cell range extender - electrive.com

With the Master Z.E. Hydrogen panel van, the range triples from 120 kilometres to up to 350 kilometres with the Range Extender. The car is to be available in two versions as a delivery van and a chassis cab. Since the two hydrogen tanks (2.1 kg H2 at 700 bar) are located under the body, the loading volume (10.8 to 20 cubic metres) should remain untouched. In this case, the additional weight is 200 kilograms and the payload is 1.2 tons.

By the way, DHL Express and StreetScooter are also working together on a new electric transporter that is also equipped with a fuel cell. As a first step, DHL Express has ordered 100 of these electric transporters fitted with fuel cell technology..

Curious George Take: Unlike PHEVs, the fuel cell range extenders can keep running when the car is parked anywhere, inside or outside While the delivery person makes a delivery, the 10 kW system can keep running to recharge the battery pack.

 

[JRP3]

Anyway, I'm here to answer your questions, not dwell on electric car fires!

The only question is why do you bother? No one is believing your BS.

 

[scaesare]

So, your argument is that no one is using these stations

Please provide a link to a post where I said this, otherwise when you start your reply out falsely attributing something to me I never said, the rest of your post is also suspect.

yet the likely situation is when someone arrives, he will need 5-7 minutes for pressure build up? That's nonsense. The 5-7 minute wait is only if there are back to back fill-ups of 5-6 cars. And as always, depends on the station design. Compressor power and capacity of high pressure chamber (aka buffer) being two important factors.
Just today I filled up about 5 kg (yes, I was down to 0) right after a Mirai that filled 3.5 kg and my wait time was.... (surprise).. ZERO!

By your logic, shall we add the wait times at electric chargers on busy weekends to the charging time?

Whereas it seems you are describing the situation as only being workable provided the stations are seldom used. In other words, it won't scale.

 

[Curious George]

OT: Hope people living in California are doing OK with the horrific fires raging on there.

On Topic: Hyundai is very optimistic about fuel cell sales.
Hyundai doesn't see fuel cell sales slowing in near future

The automaker is one of a handful to produce and sell a fuel-cell vehicle -- the Nexo crossover SUV -- and so far in 2019, demand has overshadowed the company's initial sales forecast. The South Korean automaker told Autocar it's sold 5,500 Nexo crossovers in the Asian country alone. This has effectively hurt supply for the US and Europe, but the company said it's fulfilling those orders first.

For some comparison, Hyundai only expected to deliver 1,500 fuel-cell vehicles in 2019. Production capacity now sits at 40,000 vehicles per year. That figure is still shy of what's needed to enjoy economies of scale, according to Sae-Hoon Kim, head of Hyundai's fuel-cell business, but progress is progress.

The automaker is doing its best to meet demand, Kim told Autocar, but demand continues to grow. He sees this continuing, especially as fuel-cell cars become less costly.

Hyundai is also shipping 1600 FC semi trucks to Switzerland during the next few years. One good thing is that these won't need giant supercharger stalls in shopping malls and restaurants.
Hyundai & H2E: 1,600 fuel cell trucks for Europe - electrive.com