Tesla Electric customers report making as much as $150 a day
Tesla Electric customers in Texas are reporting making as much as $150 a day during the heat waves as Tesla’s...
electrek.co
Well, looks like battery is in the lead anyway.
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Hydrogen vs. Battery
- Thread starter siry
- Start date
electrek.co
Well, looks like battery is in the lead anyway.
Tesla Electric customers report making as much as $150 a day
Tesla Electric customers in Texas are reporting making as much as $150 a day during the heat waves as Tesla’s...
Well, looks like battery is in the lead anyway.
I'd sell energy from my Powerwalls for $5/kWh, but I'll bet that was an extreme example. And note that excessive cycling is hard on batteries. You may be shortening the life of your Powerwall.
Watts_Up
Well-Known Member
I'm betting somebody builds a hydrogen fuel cell to battery conversion kit for these things eventually,
assuming there are enough of the ~15k cars still left on the road to be worth the effort.
And for -$2,000, I'd almost be tempted to buy two of them, drive them both for 30,000 miles,
then rip out the hydrogen guts, buy a natural-gas-to-hydrogen reformer,
use the fuel cells to take my house off the grid, and put battery packs in where the fuel tanks used to be.Or not.
You should team up with Rich Rebuilds, who did a Pickup Truck Tesla conversion and Tesla Model S Diesel conversion !!! LoL.
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Watts_Up
Well-Known Member
Hydrogen is simply not energy dense enough. A simple graph to show how much volume it takes:
This is the main reason the hydrogen lobby never mentions volume, only weight.
I would recommend this article, related to the analysis of the challenges of using Hydrogen in various types of transportation:
No, You Won't Be Flying In Hydrogen-Powered Passenger Planes - CleanTechnica
You really have to work hard to make hydrogen the right choice for aviation, and if the industry succeeds, its costs will be an order of magnitude higher, destroying most of their market.
cleantechnica.com
In a nutshell, the author thinks that for airplanes, batteries could be used for short flights, but will work for crossing oceans.
Green Hydrogen would not be the lowest cost solution either.
So carbon neutral biofuel seems to be the current alternative, at least until 2070 or so,
when batteries and Hydrogen technological improvement will occur.
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SalisburySam
Active Member
That, or carbon-neutral synthetic fuels, are the answer to sustainable aviation and oceanic transportation. The fuels can be chemically similar or identical to fossil fuels, and therefore operate the same or similar engines, but using atmospheric carbon and renewable energy.
Hydrogen is too hard to contain and has too little energy, and batteries will never be light enough. Ultra-capacitors were being touted for a short time, but that never panned out. I suspect it was because the tiniest breach in the dielectric results in an explosive release of the contained energy, and making them light enough also makes them fragile.
(Before the first Tesla Roadster was sold I drove my Zap Xebra to a DIY EV conversion club where the club president said "Don't buy lithium batteries because in six months we'll be able to buy ultra-capacitors." I called BS. The company claiming to be on the verge of selling ultra-caps went bankrupt and took down a really good NEV builder, ZENN, with it when they convinced ZENN to invest heavily with them. A few years later I was driving my Tesla, with lithium batteries, and nobody could remember ultra-caps anymore.)
Synthetic fuels are the way to go if we are to have sustainable aviation and oceanic shipping. (I favor sails, myself, but those are too slow and subject to doldrums.)
Frankly, if we could most 70-80% of ground based transport (consumer AND commercial) to EV/PHEV/NAT/H2/H3 in the next 15-20 years, there would be no problem keeping AIR transport with current hydrochemical based fuels, biofuels, etc. We’re NEVER going to have rockets that leave our atmosphere that aren’t based on some massively explosive event.I would recommend this article, related to the analysis of the challenges of using Hydrogen in various types of transportation:
No, You Won't Be Flying In Hydrogen-Powered Passenger Planes - CleanTechnica
You really have to work hard to make hydrogen the right choice for aviation, and if the industry succeeds, its costs will be an order of magnitude higher, destroying most of their market.In a nutshell, the author thinks that for airplanes, batteries could be used for short flights, but will work for crossing oceans.Green Hydrogen would not be the lowest cost solution either.So carbon neutral biofuel seems to be the current alternative, at least until 2070 or so,when batteries and Hydrogen technological improvement will occur.
Watts_Up
Well-Known Member
Well....
Tesla CEO: Super-capacitors Trump Electric Car Batteries.
What has a small Canadian low-speed vehicle firm and Tesla CEO Elon Musk got in common? Supercapacitors. Just like Zenn and the troubled EEstor supercapacitor firm, Tesla CEO Elon Musk thinks that batteries are so last century. Talking at the Cleantech Forum in San Francisco on Wednesday this...
"Tesla CEO Elon Musk thinks that batteries are so last century.
Talking at the Cleantech Forum in San Francisco on Wednesday this week,
the 39 year old entrepreneur told the assembled audience that
he’d bet on supercapacitors, not batteries,
to deliver an important breakthrough in electric vehicle range."
Why Did Elon Musk Spend $218 Million on an Ultracapacitor Company?
Earlier this month, Tesla announced it plans to acquire Maxwell Technologies, an established, 380-employee ultracapacitor and storage materials firm for $218 million in an all-stock deal. Why does Tesla want to own an ultracapacitor company anyway?
www.greentechmedia.com
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Honestly, Elon Musk is not a reliable source of technology information. He got it right when he bought into Tesla early on, and when he started SpaceX. Pretty much everything else (the Boring Company, Hyperloop, Twitter) has been a flop. It's been seventeen years since EEStor promised ultra-capacitors "in six months."
Capacitors are nothing new. They are integral to all of our electronics. They are not capable of safely storing enough energy to rival lithium batteries for automobiles. As I noted above, if you make them light enough, they are too fragile. A breach results in a catastrophic release of energy.
According to THIS Wikipedia page, a kilogram of TNT has the energy of 1.162 kWh. A 75 kWh ultracapacitor pack that failed catastrophically (which would happen if there is a breach in the dielectric of just one capacitor) would release the same amount of energy as just over 68 kilograms of TNT. This could be the result of a puncture or a manufacturing defect. If your Lithium battery is punctured, it may catch fire, the computer will issue a warning, and you have a good chance of getting out before the fire escapes the battery container. A puncture of a 75 kWh ultracapacitor pack would result in an explosion equivalent to 68 kilograms of TNT. You'd never even get permission to put such a car on the road. Even just a fairly large electronics capacitor that fails can be scary.
OTOH perhaps a MUCH smaller capacitor pack could make regenerative braking more efficient.
Capacitors are nothing new. They are integral to all of our electronics. They are not capable of safely storing enough energy to rival lithium batteries for automobiles. As I noted above, if you make them light enough, they are too fragile. A breach results in a catastrophic release of energy.
According to THIS Wikipedia page, a kilogram of TNT has the energy of 1.162 kWh. A 75 kWh ultracapacitor pack that failed catastrophically (which would happen if there is a breach in the dielectric of just one capacitor) would release the same amount of energy as just over 68 kilograms of TNT. This could be the result of a puncture or a manufacturing defect. If your Lithium battery is punctured, it may catch fire, the computer will issue a warning, and you have a good chance of getting out before the fire escapes the battery container. A puncture of a 75 kWh ultracapacitor pack would result in an explosion equivalent to 68 kilograms of TNT. You'd never even get permission to put such a car on the road. Even just a fairly large electronics capacitor that fails can be scary.
OTOH perhaps a MUCH smaller capacitor pack could make regenerative braking more efficient.
Tesla bought Maxwell Technologies for the dry electrode technology. The old Maxwell employees bought back the ultra-cap business and are continuing to run it because Tesla had little interest in that part of the business.
petit_bateau
Active Member
I can never find the electric aviation thread when I want it. So here you go .... (YMMV)
www.pv-magazine.com
The Hydrogen Stream: Liquid hydrogen test flight could enable long-distance flights
H2FLY claims that a recent three-hour test flight, entirely powered by liquid hydrogen, could lead to sustainable long-range flights fueled by liquefied, cryogenic hydrogen. Solaris, meanwhile, has started selling hydrogen buses in Italy.
www.pv-magazine.com
Does that include the storage tank it's in?
wow, I maybe ok to throwing some money to hydrogen, but maybe his highness dictator should pay the bill for this one...
i think musk is a puppet front man for some other agenda. I mean the whole sapce x/brain implant/tunneling other things he is into that are expensive are lame and beyond his scope as is obvious. If he would just stick to cars and funnel all that $$ into that one thing tesas could be so much better and service could be so much easier and more centers and more sc stations...jack of all trades master of none comes to mind. Others are catching up too fast now and cheaper
I just got a message and a NewsBreak link (Tesla's New Direction: Elon Musk Reveals Hydrogen Fuel Cell Car - NewsBreak) from the wife about Elon and Tesla coming out with a hydrogen fuel cell car. Of course the first place I went was TMC and saw nothing about it. I then googled it and found this with three more recent youtube videos saying it's true. elon musk hydrogen car (Google search)
I'm not a Musk fan but I really can't see him changing on this subject. Three separate videos within days of each other. I do understand why he'd want to buy twitter to stop complete bs like this. Maybe he'll try to buy YouTube next. Tesla should sue the hell out of each of these guys. I have my usual Tesla YouTube sources and before this search had never heard of any of these making this claim.
Sorry if it's just click bait I had never heard of.
I'm not a Musk fan but I really can't see him changing on this subject. Three separate videos within days of each other. I do understand why he'd want to buy twitter to stop complete bs like this. Maybe he'll try to buy YouTube next. Tesla should sue the hell out of each of these guys. I have my usual Tesla YouTube sources and before this search had never heard of any of these making this claim.
Sorry if it's just click bait I had never heard of.
If you would take the time to learn about Musk, by reading either the Ashlee Vance biography or the new one by Walter Isaacson, you would learn that he marches to his own drummer and no one else’s. He is no one’s “puppet”, in fact he’s the complete opposite.
As to SpaceX being “lame and beyond his scope” that tells me how little you know about the man and about SpaceX, which has revolutionized the space launch industry and rocket design; every other rocket manufacturer (government and private) is trying to catch up. It’s been 8 years since SpaceX first successfully landed an orbital-class booster, they have now done it over 160 times. Only one other company, RocketLab, has achieved that, and they’ve only done it once with a much smaller and less capable vehicle.
As for “others” catching up to Tesla, that too is laughable. The Model Y was the best selling EV in the world this year, beating out the Toyoto Corolla which is much less expensive, Tesla dominates the EV market in terms of units sold and market share, and has built the largest and most reliable DC charging network in the world.
That “news” story is fictional. As in, not true. Elon has criticized using hydrogen fuel cells in vehicles for years and he hasn’t changed. From a physics first principles standpoint they don’t make sense.
do you believe everything you read? and see on tv? lol.....i was active in hollywood for year untill i quit because i realized its a club and you are either connected or not-same in music and other famous jobs. Yea you can get bit parts that run your ego but you cant make it unless selected in the que.My point is the majority of fake names and backstories of famous people is un ending and its all to create some kind of persona and mystique like they have some major road on their way to being rich or famous.LOL...If you were anywhere near these people you would know how connected all these families and players are . Sme with politicians who many use fake names(yes it legal to use a fake name in politics).Its all just bs. Do you really think a dufus like zucker berg started facebook? lol I mean wake the f up. What the whole ev push about..really???? I mean research it to see how much worse it is for the enviorment then ice..And you would be shocked...There is some other play in motion here
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