Hydrogen vs. Battery

[malcolm]

Kohler added that he expects fuel cell vehicles to be less expensive than a comparable battery-powered car within the next five years.

There are two key ideas that BEV manufacturers need to get across to the average joe:

1) It's not the fuel cell, it's the size of the tank.
Because battery packs can be flat, new areas can be freed up for increased passenger/luggage space.

2) Home or workplace recharging is fine (not to mention more convenient) for the vast majority of journeys.

 

[Eberhard]

hydrogen conversion-rate electricity to wheel electric to hydrogen 0.7, hydrogen to electric 0.4, electric to wheel 0.8 = 0,224 electric to batterie 0,85 batterie to wheel 0,8 = 0,68 the result: battery is more then three times efficient then Hydrogen

 

[dpeilow]

Green Car Congress: Obama FY 2012 budget proposes big boost for EVs and EV technology, cuts for hydrogen

 

[dpeilow]

PhotoEssay: Fuel Cell - E&T Magazine

Three Mercedes B-class F-cells doing a round the world tour. I wonder where they will be getting their hydrogen from?

 

[Adm]

 

[richkae]

My electric car has a 240 mile range right now with no use of any public infrastructure because it charges in my house.
If I had a hydrogen car right now you know what its range would be? Zero. There is no hydrogen infrastructure near me.

It makes no sense.

 

[mattjs33]

2) Home or workplace recharging is fine (not to mention more convenient) for the vast majority of journeys.

Probably WAY off topic, sorry, but here goes:

Why is natural gas so often overlooked? Since most homes have gas, at home fueling is possible, just like recharging. The natural gas infrastructure is so extensive, refueling points could be almost anywhere. It would require very minor modifications to the drivetrains that manufacuturers have already invested millions into. CNG storage can be put in place of existing gas tanks. Plus, the U.S. produces, what, like 90% of its own natural gas, we have more of it than anybody else in the world, and it is very cheap. If you're looking for a cheap and easy way to free the U.S. vehicle fleet from the grasp of foreign oil, that's the way to go.

 

[JRP3]

Do you have any stats as to how many homes actually have NG? Certainly in my area most homes do not. Additionally it is still more efficient to use NG in combined cycle generating plants to charge EV's than to distribute it into millions of inefficient ICE vehicles. I've also seen enough reports and videos from NG explosions that I have no desire to have NG in my home or my car.

 

[JRP3]

Looks as if about 51% of US homes have NG, I'll bet almost 100% have electricity.

 

[mattjs33]

Looks as if about 51% of US homes have NG, I'll bet almost 100% have electricity.

That actually surprises me. Obviously I didn't have the figures, but I would have thought it was higher. So there you go.

I have no desire to have NG in my home or my car.

Precisely the reason I would never drive a car around with a container of hydrogen on board either.

 

[dpeilow]

Hyundai-Kia signs fuel cell vehicle deployment MOU with Nordic countries - Autoblog Green

 

[doug]

Why is natural gas so often overlooked?

I've wondered the same thing. We have natural gas here in the SF Bay area and I have seen the occasional CNG vehicle driving around. Of course the neighborhood of San Bruno did recently blow up due to a ruptured pipeline. For what it's worth, I certainly prefer cooking with gas compared to the standard resistive electric elements (induction stove tops aren't that common).

I often bring up CNG ICE in response to HFCV advocates. The one instance where the well-to-wheels efficiency of HFCVs is equivalent to (or perhaps marginally better than) that of BEVs is when the H2 is extracted from NG. So why not just use the NG directly. You get most of the benefit at a much lower cost and you get to leverage existing infrastructure.

 

[TEG]

I have NG in my house, and use it for stovetop, hot water heating, central heating, and clothes drying. It is a good energy carrier if you want a lot of heat fast by burning.
Some people may prefer "cleaner" electricity, but NG came with the house so that's what I ended up with.

As far as for an auto fuel... Home refueling takes a lot of electricity to compress the gas before it goes into the vehicle. So efficiency needs to factor in that extra amount of energy.
Also, I heard that the home compressors are very noisy. On the positive side, in California, you do quality for carpool lane stickers.

NGVs seem most popular with fleets (city, public utility, etc.) and not so successful with consumers.

 

[JRP3]

Of course the neighborhood of San Bruno did recently blow up due to a ruptured pipeline.

I saw a video of something similar in NJ I think, it was insane. I know it's fairly rare but seems to happen often enough that I'm quite happy cooking with electrons as well as driving with them. Saw some pics of a CNG car that was set on fire, the end results looked much worse than a gasoline fire.

 

[JRP3]

As far as for an auto fuel... Home refueling takes a lot of electricity to compress the gas into a liquid to go into the vehicle. So efficiency needs to factor in that extra amount of energy.

Do the home compressors liquefy it or just pump it as a gas under pressure? I thought LNG was different technology than CNG.

 

[doug]

Do the home compressors liquefy it or just pump it as a gas under pressure? I thought LNG was different technology than CNG.

Yes, CNG is just compressed (as the name suggests). LNG is cryogenic.

 

[TEG]

Do the home compressors liquefy it or just pump it as a gas under pressure? I thought LNG was different technology than CNG.

Oh yeah, I guess cars like the Civic NGV compress is to ~3600PSI which is still gaseous.

Compressed natural gas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

...CNG is made by compressing natural gas (which is mainly composed of methane [CH4]), to less than 1% of the volume it occupies at standard atmospheric pressure.
It is stored and distributed in hard containers at a pressure of 200–248 bar (2900–3600 psi), usually in cylindrical or spherical shapes. CNG's volumetric energy density is estimated to be 42% of LNG's (because it is not liquefied), and 25% of diesel's...

...

CNG is often confused with liquefied natural gas (LNG). While both are stored forms of natural gas, the key difference is that CNG is gas that is stored (as a gas) at high pressure, while LNG is in uncompressed liquid form. CNG has a lower cost of production and storage compared to LNG as it does not require an expensive cooling process and cryogenic tanks. CNG requires a much larger volume to store the same mass of gasoline or petrol and the use of very high pressures (3000 to 4000 psi, or 205 to 275 bar)...

 

[TEG]

Refuel your Honda Civic GX CNG car at home with the Phill
Boost for natural gas cars: Home fueling - U.S. news - Environment - Green Machines - msnbc.com

...Dubbed Phill, the unit attaches to a garage wall in homes with a natural gas connection and takes about six hours to refill Honda's Civic GX, the only compressed natural gas car still sold in the United States after Ford discontinued its model...

...Natural gas lines in homes are low pressure, and Phill gradually increases that pressure to the 3,000 or 3,600 pounds per square inch required by natural gas vehicles. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31066137/media-kit/

The unit is built by Toronto-based FuelMaker Corp., which says Phill is quieter than the average clothes' dryer and uses just 800 watts of electricity...

(so 800watts * 6 hours = 4.8 kWh extra electricity needed in addition to the gas... )

 

[dpeilow]

James May at it again: Cracking the problem of hydrogen-fuel future - Telegraph

 

[JRP3]

Nice response.