Hydrogen vs. Battery

[Robert.Boston]

Interesting times, these; what will replace the ICE as the mainstream automotive power plant? I still think that BEVs have enormous advantages to win the end-game, inasmuch as electricity is ubiquitous and its source can continuously evolve, separate and apart from the vehicle fleet.

 

[dpeilow]

UK launches new 400million hydrogen fuel cell project | TheGreenCarWebsite.co.uk

Idiots.

First and noisiest with the PR? Toyota.

 

[JRP3]

Amazing. Do they really need a test fleet to figure out there is no fueling infrastructure, and what it would cost to create one?

 

[dpeilow]

Tweet from Paul Everitt, head of the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders:

@dpeilow the companies in the consortium and work already being done in Japan, Germany and the US suggests hydrogen has a role to play

I'd say Chu's stance on taking office says it doesn't.


To put this in context, this sum would buy over 13,000 of the ABB DC rapid chargers that Estonia recently announced they were installing (without any additional economies of scale or discounts that would be possible in that quantity). That's the equivalent of one every 2.5 miles of main road in the UK. It is 50% more than the number of petrol stations we have in the UK. And this would be for the 10% use case - 90% of charging being done at home or work.

I've mentioned a few times in the last couple of months that we were heading towards our "CARB moment". This was it. Only this time they are wise to WKTEC, so they decided to continue the chicken feed subsidy that is available to EVs to laughingly appear technology neutral (while totally distorting the market in favour of hydrogen with an order of magnitude more money).

 

[richkae]

In the US we spend 300+ billion dollars a year on gasoline.
The oil companies have very very deep pockets. They want to see a future where they sell us hydrogen for cars instead of using electricity.
They don't care that producing and using hydrogen is much less efficient than using electricity directly, or that an EV infrastructure is orders of magnitude cheaper to develop than a hydrogen one.
They are going to to try to get our tax dollars to pay for the infrastructure so that they can sell us hydrogen - but they will use their deep pockets to fund everyone and everything that helps them achieve that goal.

I don't think this can be repeated enough.

 

[AndrewBissell]

David - given that one of the objectives is to evaluate the emissions benefits - can the whole thing be challenged under the legally binding carbon reduction targets of the UK?

 

[dpeilow]

That's one possible avenue. The other could be EU law on state aid. Any lawyers in that area here?

 

[stopcrazypp]

UK launches new 400million hydrogen fuel cell project | TheGreenCarWebsite.co.uk

Idiots.

First and noisiest with the PR? Toyota.

Wow, millions down the drain to go the same route that the US already gone before (Bush already threw $500 million down the drain for hydrogen and still no cars for consumers and a paltry amount of demonstration stations, with only a handful accessible to the public).

Does the UK at least have a similar multi-billion dollar investment into plug-ins? I thought the UK had budget problems (which is why they cut some green car programs), but they apparently have 400 million pounds to waste on this.

They can be forgiven if they headed straight to doing something productive (like actually building public stations or getting cars into consumer hands), but another exploratory project sounds like a waste of money.

 

[dpeilow]

Exactly.

Investment in plug-ins is relatively small by comparison. £30m was spent on the Plugged-in-Places programme to build out (mostly useless IMHO) charging points, I believe a pot of the same size is available for the £5000 grant to consumers for plug-ins and finally a £20.7m loan guarantee was given to Nissan so they could get a £197.3m loan from the European Investment Bank for the Sunderland battery plant.

 

[dpeilow]

wtf?

 

[doug]

Green Car Congress: F-City H2 fuel cell range extended electric city vehicle homologated in France, pending homologation in Switzerland

The fuel cell range extender has an energy capacity of 15 kWh and works in a power pack alongside a 2.4 kWh lithium ion battery. The fuel cell energy pack weighs 120 kg—half the weight of the pack in the original F-City prototype. Michelin’s Energy Pack containing battery and fuel cell range extender offers a significantly improved performance over the original NiMH battery with overall energy density almost quadrupled. Range of the F-City H2 is 150 km (93 miles).

I can't actually tell if this thing has a plug, so the author of this article is probably wrong to call it range extended. As far as I can tell it's just a HFCV with a battery buffer to compensate for comparatively low power from the fuel cell (like most HFCVs have these days).

 

[vfx]

...

...).

tgi u!

 

[jcstp]

Colruyt goes for green hydrogen - Colruyt Group

Colruyt Group goes for green hydrogen

On 9 February 2012 the Colruyt Group and its partner WaterstofNet will inaugurate a unique refuelling station. By means of electricity generated from the renewable energy sources wind and solar power, green hydrogen is produced that will be used as fuel for lift trucks. A unique event in Europe that fits perfectly with the group's ambitions to thoroughly assess the merits of hydrogen as a renewable fuel and effectively use it in its distribution centres. In this way the Colruyt Group again takes a significant step towards promoting the sustainability of its activities.

 

[Dan5]

I think the infrastructure required for hydrogen is going to be a huge hurdle.
Also it is not as efficient as EVs in terms of energy usage. Compare to electric cars, hydrogen vehicles require about 5 times as much energy to get from point A to point B.
The Mercedes F-Cell, gets the equivalent of 17 mpg if you convert the energy from hydrogen to gasoline; slightly better than its gasoline counterpart, but not significantly better

I think as a "bridge" technology, it's not good, it's the HD-DVD format of the automotive industry.

All things remaining equal, you are better off taking the electricity directly and using it to charge a car verses using it to make hydrogen.

 

[doug]

Somehow we missed posting this: California Orders Automakers to Sell More Nonpolluting Cars - Businessweek

The new rules also require oil companies to install hydrogen supply pumps at existing gasoline stations to power fuel-cell cars.

Each hydrogen pump may cost between $1 million and $2 million, according to the air board. Companies affected by the new rule include BP Plc, Chevron Corp., Tesoro Corp., ConocoPhillips, Valero Energy Corp., Royal Dutch Shell Plc and Exxon Mobil Corp.

The requirement may lead to a court fight with the oil companies, said Cathy Reheis-Boyd, president of the Western States Petroleum Association, a trade group whose members include those that would have to comply with the new rules.

“We strongly oppose the clean fuels outlet requirement,” Reheis-Boyd told the regulatory board yesterday.

 

[dsm363]

2 million dollars is 200 $10,000 DC chargers which would be more than enough for most states instead of a single hydrogen pump.
Is Nissan's $9,900 Quick-Charger a Breakthrough for Electric Cars? | PluginCars.com

 

[dpeilow]

Now that they've been asked to install it at every station, the smoke and mirror don't work any more.

 

[Doug_G]

Now that they've been asked to install it at every station, the smoke and mirror don't work any more.

Two possibilities... either CARB is really naive and thinks that actually makes sense, or maybe they gotten savvy and just called their bluff on hydrogen.

Just hilarious to get the companies boosting hydrogen to go to court against it!

 

[dpeilow]

Apparently it's only 100 stations. So they won't even do that.

I vote savvy.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Somehow we missed posting this: California Orders Automakers to Sell More Nonpolluting Cars - Businessweek

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/12/1...-push-for-1-4m-zero-emissions-vehicles-on-th/

ABG reported it a while back. The provision for the hydrogen stations are still in very early stages. Previously the program was used for methanol, ethanol and CNG. However, it doesn't seem like it was very effective. CNG is probably the closest to hydrogen (except a station is much cheaper to build and service since natural gas is relatively easy to deliver and is cheaper), but the program didn't really seem to help adoption of CNG vehicles.