Hydrogen vs. Battery

[Jeff N]

One thing to note is that those are measures of peak efficiency as opposed to average efficiency. IRL, the Prius is the best of the bunch at ~35-38% efficiency (based on the 2ZR-FXE's BSFC map), with the Accord and then Malibu being less efficient than that, mostly because they have conventional multi-speed transmissions as opposed to Toyota's PSD.

Today's 3rd gen Prius engine has a peak efficiency of 38.5%. The 4th gen Prius engine peak efficiency of around 40% was disclosed in a 2015 SAE paper. The Accord and Malibu hybrids do not have conventional multi-speed transmissions although that is irrelevant to their engine efficiencies. They both have two-motor multi-mode eCVT transmissions although their designs are quite different from each other and from Toyota's Prius design. The Accord is claimed to have an engine efficiency of about the same as the existing Prius. The Malibu engine efficiency is not yet disclosed but it and the Accord are of roughly similar size, weight, and performance as the Toyota Camry but get 48/47/45 (city/combined/highway) EPA efficiency vs 43/41/39 for the Camry.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

I disagree with your statement about transmissions. They aren't irrelevant, they dictate average engine efficiency during the drive-cycle. The Prius keeps the engine between ~35%-38% efficiency by managing the torque sent directly to the wheels from the engine and through MG2->MG1->the wheels depending on load.

Tossing the transmission in there gives a range of ~28%-37%.

http://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/heatgames/results-03.html
Toyota Prius - Power Split Device

Honda hasn't published a BSFC map for the 2L four in the Accord hybrid, so I'm not sure how much efficiency varies by load/speed. Honda also uses the engine as a generator all the time below 43mph, which hurts efficiency compared to splitting how much torque goes directly to the wheels and how much goes through the generator/motor to the wheels. After 43mph, I imagine transmission efficiency is similar, although w/o a BSFC map I can't comment on the range of engine efficiency. The same would apply to the Malibu if it's using a version of the Volt's transmission.

 

[dpeilow]

What BMW really thinks

BMW 5 Series GT FCEV 2015 Review - motoring.com.au

 

[Johan]

What BMW really thinks

BMW 5 Series GT FCEV 2015 Review - motoring.com.au

They're too far behind to ever catch up to BEVs. The train has left the station in 2012 and they're still in R&D:

Some telling quotes from the article:

"And what the 5 Series GT fuel-cell delivers for absolutely no customers whatsoever is 150kW of power, a 0-100km/h sprint of 8.4 seconds and a 180km/h top speed."

"It’s not as quiet as you’d expect, though. There are cooling fans for the battery and the fuel stack, plus fans to force air into the stack to speed up the electricity-generating process. They’re not hugely intrusive, but they’re surprisingly noticeable."

"The reality is that while a good petrol engine is about 36 per cent efficient, a fresh fuel-cell is 65 per cent efficient, but that can drop to 45 per cent when it’s hot (with heat and the compressor fan taking almost all of the losses). But it remains a lot more efficient, and its emissions are still just heat and water vapour."

 

[dpeilow]

Still it's not quite as wacky as that Audi e-Diesel, which requires you to make hydrogen first (with all the associated losses), then transform that to hydrocarbons, then burn it in a conventional ICE with even more inefficiency. Anyone seen a complete set of numbers for the losses in the whole chain?

 

[ecarfan]

What BMW really thinks
BMW 5 Series GT FCEV 2015 Review - motoring.com.au

The premise of the article is demonstrably false. Quote: "What do most people say when you ask them about electric cars? Most say they are quiet and strong around town, they zip around cities superbly and then the batteries suddenly die like an iPhone, leaving you stranded in peak-hour, blocking the busiest lane, with people honking and yelling at you."
No one who owns a Tesla feels that way! I am so frustrated with ignorant "journalists" ignoring the reality of what Tesla has achieved in just a few years simply to make what they write more dramatic. All my friends are now used to me telling them how I routinely take trips of hundreds of miles with no worries, and tens of thousands of Model S owners are sharing the same stories with their friends. Public perception of EVs is changing.
And the idea of a cryogenic onboard hydrogen fuel tank in a car seems ludicrous to me. It will be more expensive, bigger, heavier, and the hydrogen filling station will cost more than the extremely expensive stations currently in operation. It makes an already inefficient, expensive, minimal interior space FCV even worse.

 

[Johan]

Still it's not quite as wacky as that Audi e-Diesel, which requires you to make hydrogen first (with all the associated losses), then transform that to hydrocarbons, then burn it in a conventional ICE with even more inefficiency. Anyone seen a complete set of numbers for the losses in the whole chain?

There was a good calculation in this thread:

Audi e-diesel takes a bad idea and makes it worse - Page 7

 

[dauger]

An excellent article on surprising woes of Hydrogen stations:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...-hydrogen-fuel-unavailable-stations-dont-work

Apparently the suppliers can't get their act together. Some quotes:

"The stations are frequently inoperative, they say, closed for days or weeks at a time.
Moreover, when the stations are functioning properly, they sometimes can only fuel one or two cars before an hour-long wait is required--and some stations can only fuel the cars to half-full."

A FCV lessee "hasn't been able to drive for five weeks"

Part of the problem is management: no one is taking real responsibility. If this infrastructure fails at dozens of FCVs, how could it handle a few thousand? This experiment is already failing fast.

 

[jerry33]

This experiment is already failing fast.

Of course. There are only three reasons for hydrogen:

1. CARB credits.

2. Stall the transition from ICE cars for as long as possible.

3. Purchase fuel from the same companies that sell gas.

 

[tkizzy]

It seems to me pure electric is sufficient for people cars, and maybe hydrogen fuel cell has a place in long-distance industrial applications like trucking?

 

[jerry33]

It seems to me pure electric is sufficient for people cars, and maybe hydrogen fuel cell has a place in long-distance industrial applications like trucking?

There are already lots of fires and explosions from trucks carrying various cargos. Adding pressurized hydrogen to the mix isn't my idea of a safe environment.

 

[richkae]

There is a really great system for long haul overland transport that is very efficient and can easily be moved to electric power.
They are called trains. Trucks can only compete because of the subsidies they receive. Like free roads and cheap gas.

 

[ecarfan]

An excellent article on surprising woes of Hydrogen stations:
http://www.greencarreports.com/news...-hydrogen-fuel-unavailable-stations-dont-work
Apparently the suppliers can't get their act together. Some quotes:
"The stations are frequently inoperative, they say, closed for days or weeks at a time.
Moreover, when the stations are functioning properly, they sometimes can only fuel one...

Thanks for the link. Not surprising though. Once again the brilliance of Tesla's "proprietary" (a frequent criticism) Supercharging network has been demonstrated. Tesla is completely responsible for it and works hard to correct any problems, which are rare, and it has been built out -- and continues to be built out -- with amazing speed.
Fuel cell cars are a bad joke and the deplorable fueling situation will help kill them.

 

[dpeilow]

I was browsing for something completely unrelated and had to laugh when I saw this in the ads at the bottom of the page.

Which takes you to this page: Hydrogen cars hit the highways - Shell Global

Rather a specific amount of cars expected to be sold in California don't you think?


Then there is the usual

Most battery electric cars have a more restricted range and take hours to recharge.

All smacks a bit of desperation.

 

[ecarfan]

Of course it does. A headline like "Why More and More Drivers Are Switching to Hydrogen" is beyond laughable: it's a flat out lie. Shell and all the oil companies are terrified of EVs which are not good for their business model . So they promote HCVs thinking they can be the H2 source.

 

[Doug_G]

I was browsing for something completely unrelated and had to laugh when I saw this in the ads at the bottom of the page.

I thought this part was (unintentionally) hilarious:

Proponents of hydrogen say that fuel-cell vehicles have the edge over battery electric cars in a world of low emissions because they perform in almost the same way as petrol and diesel cars. Except that only clean water comes out of the tailpipe.
“In terms of performance, acceleration and comfort, hydrogen cars are comparable with conventional cars,”

Right... much WORSE than electric cars.

 

[ohmman]

Saw this today and thought it was on-topic here:

New efficiency record for solar hydrogen production is 14 percent

 

[bga]

Saw this today and thought it was on-topic here:

New efficiency record for solar hydrogen production is 14 percent

Considering that this is for the solar cell AND electrolysis, it's actually very good.

Almost good enough to lull one into thinking that the hydrogen economy has a chance.

 

[dpeilow]

Another blogger that doesn't get it.

8 Reasons Why the Tokyo Olympics Will Be the Most Futuristic Weve Ever Seen

 

[Monsieur X]

EV vs Hydrogen - Can Hydrogen compete article(s)

Here's an interesting article that states the many substantial challenges of Hydrogen vs EV's

Here's the link;

Toyota vs. Tesla – can hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles compete with EVs? : Renew Economy