Hydrogen vs. Battery

[acoste]

In the meantime we need to accelerate BEVs because they use less energy.

So why use H2 in cars at all? Why not just use CH4?

I don't know.
VW believes in CNG, BMW tentatively prepares future platforms for H2, Toyota believes in H2.
Governments support both H2 and battery research.

 

[acoste]

This is the group (joint venture of 15 wind farm operators) who runs the wind-to-gas plant: Home

Their original goal is to utilize the unused electric energy. And since they make H2 first, they opened a H2 MOBILITY hydrogen filling station on the site as well.

 

[Rogstar]

So 80% of that is used to refine petroleum today, which is used in ICE cars.
If ICE cars aren't there, then that 8 B kg/yr will be unused?
A mid-size FCEV at 60 miles per kg consumes 200kg/yr for 12000 miles/yr average US driving.
So, that spare 8B kg/yr is enough for 40 million cars driving 12k miles/yr? What am I missing?

You're missing that you have to liberate the Hydrogen, it doesn't just "exist" on its own.

That means you must consider how you obtain it.
Since fossil fuels should (will) be out of the picture, that leaves grid electricity, which brings us back to the same old problem.

You can use that electricity MUCH more efficiently in other ways (all well documented).

Hydrogen doesn't make sense!

 

[Rogstar]

I don't know.
VW believes in CNG, BMW tentatively prepares future platforms for H2, Toyota believes in H2.
Governments support both H2 and battery research.

Toyota?
Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right' about fuel cell, but moves forward with hydrogen anyway - Electrek

 

[JRP3]

You folks should stroll outside at times, see what new data might have emerged.

None that change the basic physics of hydrogen for passenger vehicles. There is no possible data which will ever make hydrogen work for personal transportation at large scale.

And don't judge by what's happening today. When every family has a hydrogen car, every driveway will have a hydrogen faucet.

That won't happen, and if it did, the carnage from explosions would be massive. With only a small handful of monitored public H fueling stations there have already been explosions, can you imagine what would happen if your scenario became reality? Millions of people pluging and unplugging high pressure gas lines at home on daily basis? Not to mention millions of 10,000 psi tanks traveling at highway speeds? No thanks.

 

[Merrill]

So many people are misinformed, there is a tennis clothing line called Hydrogen and the founder states on his web site that someday all cars will run on Hydrogen. This is supposedly a high end clothing company, and unfortunately some tennis players are wearing his clothing. Why any car manufacturer would push H2 is beyond me.

 

[Guy V]

So many people are misinformed, there is a tennis clothing line called Hydrogen and the founder states on his web site that someday all cars will run on Hydrogen. This is supposedly a high end clothing company, and unfortunately some tennis players are wearing his clothing. Why any car manufacturer would push H2 is beyond me.

Delaying tactic.

 

[acoste]

Toyota?
Toyota admits 'Elon Musk is right' about fuel cell, but moves forward with hydrogen anyway - Electrek

Yes, Toyota.

From your article: ""Now Toyota admits that Tesla CEO Elon Musk, who called hydrogen fuel cell “incredibly dumb”, “is right,” but the company is still heavily investing in the technology."

Doesn't it ring an alarm that something isn't right with the article??

And it quotes only half of the sentence:

Fred quoted:
“Elon Musk is right – it’s better to charge the electric car directly by plugging in,”

Original:
“Elon Musk is right - it’s better to charge the electric car directly by plugging in,” said Tanaka. But hydrogen has a place as a viable alternative to gasoline, he added."



So here is the next fuel cell Toyota:
Lexus LS Hydrogen Fuel Cell Prototype Spied Testing, Coming Soon

 

[nwdiver]

So here is the next fuel cell Toyota:
Lexus LS Hydrogen Fuel Cell Prototype Spied Testing, Coming Soon

Gonna be interesting to see who's going to buy a $60k Lexus when you can get a 3 year old Mirai for <$20k... that comes with a $15k fuel card. Maybe they'll offer $60k cash back? I'd still be on the fence My house makes surplus electrons not surplus H2

But here's how to tell if this is FUD or a serious attempt at a FCV. If it doesn't have a plug it's 110% FUD. FCVs already have a battery and an electric motor. There's absolutely no reason to not use the grid for daily energy needs.... unless your goal is to slow the erosion of ICE and hybrid sales.

 

[RDoc]

I

<snip>
But here's how to tell if this is FUD or a serious attempt at a FCV. If it doesn't have a plug it's 110% FUD. FCVs already have a battery and an electric motor. There's absolutely no reason to not use the grid for daily energy needs.... unless your goal is to slow the erosion of ICE and hybrid sales.

I'm not sure at all that's a good FUD meter. Fuel cell cars like the Mirai have very small batteries, 1.6 kWh for the Mirai, and I don't think any have a home charging facility. AFAIK the batteries are only for low speed use, to store regen power and provide more current for acceleration. They're like a non-plugin hybrid battery with a very short range capability.

 

[Saghost]

I

I'm not sure at all that's a good FUD meter. Fuel cell cars like the Mirai have very small batteries, 1.6 kWh for the Mirai, and I don't think any have a home charging facility. AFAIK the batteries are only for low speed use, to store regen power and provide more current for acceleration. They're like a non-plugin hybrid battery with a very short range capability.

Yup. But the added cost of a larger pack and charger is small - and would be easily offset by the way it allows a smaller fuel cell (the expensive part of an FCEV.)

As a system solution, there's no good reason not to go plug in - unless the company doesn't want people to see it as an EV.

 

[Curious George]

N

That won't happen, and if it did, the carnage from explosions would be massive. With only a small handful of monitored public H fueling stations there have already been explosions, can you imagine what would happen if your scenario became reality? Millions of people pluging and unplugging high pressure gas lines at home on daily basis? Not to mention millions of 10,000 psi tanks traveling at highway speeds? No thanks.

The hydrogen FUD here is pure and unadulterated We can say the same about natural gas and electric lines too. Here is deadly natural gas explosion in San Bruno. So people should go back to wood burning fire places to heat their houses?
San Bruno pipeline explosion - Wikipedia

How about those wild fires in California caused by power lines that charge the electric cars? Here is the link. These drove PG&E bankrupt btw.
CAL Fire Finds PG&E Responsible for Three Northern California Wildfires

• The La Porte Fire, in Butte County, started in the early morning hours of Oct. 9 and burned a total of 8,417 acres, destroying 74 structures. There were no injuries to civilians or firefighters. CAL FIRE has determined the fire was caused by tree branches falling onto PG&E power lines. CAL FIRE investigators determined there were no violations of state law related to the cause of this fire.

What, you say you will just put up solar panels and be free of power lines that are causing fires and deaths? Well, I'll be wary there too. Must ask Walmart first about their experience.

Here is a little challenge for you. Find us a hydrogen car fire incident. I am genuinely interested.
In return, I will find 10 electric car fire incidents if you like.

 

[nwdiver]

The hydrogen FUD here is pure and unadulterated We can say the same about natural gas and electric lines too. Here is deadly natural gas explosion in San Bruno. So people should go back to wood burning fire places to heat their houses?
San Bruno pipeline explosion - Wikipedia

How about those wild fires in California caused by power lines that charge the electric cars? Here is the link.
CAL Fire Finds PG&E Responsible for Three Northern California Wildfires

• The La Porte Fire, in Butte County, started in the early morning hours of Oct. 9 and burned a total of 8,417 acres, destroying 74 structures. There were no injuries to civilians or firefighters. CAL FIRE has determined the fire was caused by tree branches falling onto PG&E power lines. CAL FIRE investigators determined there were no violations of state law related to the cause of this fire.

What, you say you will just put up solar panels and be free of power lines that are causing fires and deaths? Well, I'll be wary there too. Must ask Walmart first about their experience.

Here is a little challenge for you. Find us a hydrogen car fire incident. I am genuinely interested.
In return, I will find 10 electric car fire incidents.

.... Even with H2 powered cars we're going to need power lines... in part to make H2. We can eliminate both H2 and CH4 pipelines in most areas. Also going to need more solar... again... in part to make H2... H2 isn't magic... it's just wasteful.

 

[Curious George]

Yup. But the added cost of a larger pack and charger is small - and would be easily offset by the way it allows a smaller fuel cell (the expensive part of an FCEV.)

As a system solution, there's no good reason not to go plug in - unless the company doesn't want people to see it as an EV.

So, all we need is a plug-in fuel cell and hydrogen proponents and naysayers will all be happy? That is win-win, I agree. Why add extra 85 kWh battery for the less likely long trips when most commutes are short? And why use hydrogen for daily commutes? Then I think the folks of this thread will love the Mercedes F-cell. Solves hydrogen supply concerns by charging at home and refuels in 5 minutes on long trips.

Mercedes-Benz GLC F-CELL: Market launch of the world's first electric vehicle featuring fuel cell and plug-in hybrid technology | marsMediaSite
"Experience fuel cell technology – renting the GLC F-CELL

From the spring of 2019, other business as well as private customers will also be able to experience the new fuel cell technology and rent the vehicle via Mercedes-Benz Rent from one of the seven GLC F-CELL outlets throughout Germany. The GLC F-CELL will be available for both short and long-term rental via the Premium Car Rental service from Mercedes-Benz."

 

[nwdiver]

So, all we need is a plug-in fuel cell and hydrogen proponents and naysayers will all be happy? That is win-win, I agree. Why add extra 85 kWh battery for the less likely long trips when most commutes are short? And why use hydrogen for daily commutes? Then I think the folks of this thread will love the Mercedes F-cell. Solves hydrogen supply concerns by charging at home and refuels in 5 minutes on long trips.

Mercedes-Benz GLC F-CELL: Market launch of the world's first electric vehicle featuring fuel cell and plug-in hybrid technology | marsMediaSite
"Experience fuel cell technology – renting the GLC F-CELL

From the spring of 2019, other business as well as private customers will also be able to experience the new fuel cell technology and rent the vehicle via Mercedes-Benz Rent from one of the seven GLC F-CELL outlets throughout Germany. The GLC F-CELL will be available for both short and long-term rental via the Premium Car Rental service from Mercedes-Benz."

IMO a FCV with ~20 miles of EV only range is ~10x more viable than one with 0 miles of EV range. At least it still has some utility when they shut down all the H2 stations for a root cause investigation.... and you don't have to use 20% of your H2 tank to fill up at the only H2 station that's 20 miles away once a week. Use can use the battery ~90% of the time and H2 the other 10% when you need to travel further.

 

[Saghost]

Here is a little challenge for you. Find us a hydrogen car fire incident. I am genuinely interested.
In return, I will find 10 electric car fire incidents if you like.

Try a couple more orders of magnitude. According to Inside EVs, there are something north of 6 million EVs on the roads these days. In 2018 there were 6500 FCEVs worldwide, more than half of them in California. 2300 more sold since in California, so maybe 10k total FCEVs.

To have equal rates of fire, you'd expect to see almost a thousand times more EVs fires, because there are almost a thousand times as many cars on the road...

A quick Googling didn't find a hydrogen car fire, but in addition to two fueling stations explosions, I got this charming incident where the hydrogen tanks on a truck transporting compressed hydrogen for automotive fueling burned. Does that count?

Hydrogen truck explodes on way to FCV refueling site [Video] - LeftLaneNews

 

[Saghost]

So, all we need is a plug-in fuel cell and hydrogen proponents and naysayers will all be happy? That is win-win, I agree. Why add extra 85 kWh battery for the less likely long trips when most commutes are short? And why use hydrogen for daily commutes? Then I think the folks of this thread will love the Mercedes F-cell. Solves hydrogen supply concerns by charging at home and refuels in 5 minutes on long trips.

Mercedes-Benz GLC F-CELL: Market launch of the world's first electric vehicle featuring fuel cell and plug-in hybrid technology | marsMediaSite
"Experience fuel cell technology – renting the GLC F-CELL

From the spring of 2019, other business as well as private customers will also be able to experience the new fuel cell technology and rent the vehicle via Mercedes-Benz Rent from one of the seven GLC F-CELL outlets throughout Germany. The GLC F-CELL will be available for both short and long-term rental via the Premium Car Rental service from Mercedes-Benz."

If a hydrogen vehicle can ever make sense, it'd be one like that. I'm still not convinced by the economics or the efficiency, but it's much less stupid than the other FCEVs to date.

 

[JRP3]

The hydrogen FUD here is pure and unadulterated We can say the same about natural gas and electric lines too. Here is deadly natural gas explosion in San Bruno. So people should go back to wood burning fire places to heat their houses?
San Bruno pipeline explosion - Wikipedia

NG is also dangerous, but at least home connections are hard plumbed and people aren't plugging and unplugging their NG connections on a daily basis.

What, you say you will just put up solar panels and be free of power lines that are causing fires and deaths? Well, I'll be wary there too. Must ask Walmart first about their experience.

Minimal damage, no explosion. Any energy medium has danger potential, 10,000 PSI hydrogen has much more than most.

Here is a little challenge for you. Find us a hydrogen car fire incident. I am genuinely interested.

For how few H cars exist the already discussed incidents are already too many.

 

[JRP3]

Some CNG vehicle excitement, lots more where these came from

 

[Dr. J]

Why add extra 85 kWh battery for the less likely long trips when most commutes are short?

Why have gasoline fuel tanks larger than 4 gallons (when most commutes are short)?