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Hydrogen vs. Battery

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Yep, because incentives aren't aligned or transparent enough. It's too cheap partially because externalities aren't priced. Copious things are used wastefully by humankind. Scarcity (real or artificial) incentivizes efficiency, and the best way to create scarcity of fossil fuels is pricing. Unfortunately, it's very inequitable to just increase prices across the board, so we end up where we are with artificially cheap and abundant fossil fuels.
Not that it is remotely politically possible in the USA, but there is a solution to the inequity of just raising prices "across the board": rebate the increase to people on a per capita basis, not a usage basis.

Under this scenario a carbon tax, say, would price in the externalities of fossil fuels by raising the cost considerably. This would massively incentivize reduced, or more efficient, use of fossil fuels. The revenue obtained would then be rebated to people on an equal-share basis, but that wouldn't affect the economic incentive provided by higher prices, which is the point. Winners would be those who use fewer fossil fuels than average, and that would likely include most of the poor. Losers would be those who use more fossil fuels than the average. (Bear in mind that everything would be affected because of increased transportation and production costs, at least until transport and production are mostly electrified with renewables. Sort of like the VAT in Europe, but bigger.) To keep the economic disruption within tolerable limits, it would need to be phased-in over several years.


I expect that you, and some others here, are already familiar with this idea but I present it anyway as a topic for discussion. Not that it can happen under our political system.
 

For Many, Hydrogen Is the Fuel of the Future. New Research Raises Doubts.​

Currently, hydrogen fuel is made from natural gas. But even the cleanest process produces more greenhouse pollution than simply burning the gas, a study has found.


One peculiar line in that article:

"In all, they found that the greenhouse gas footprint of blue hydrogen was more than 20 percent greater than burning natural gas or coal for heat."

Coal produces far more CO2 than natural gas. If blue hydrogen is 20% worse than nat gas it should not be as bad as coal. If it's 20% worse than coal it should be twice as bad as nat gas. (Give or take since I don't know the actual ratio of CO2 between nat gas and coal.)

And the power I use to run my car is so cheap because it was produced on the sun. At zero cost. So why are we even talking about hydrogen? My solar panels put power into my batteries, and I recharge my car with those electrons.

Same here! No power-line distribution losses, either.
 
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So how do you produce H2 and get electricity out of it?
What source of energy is cleaner and cheaper than renewable electricity? Hydrogen from renewable electricity is limited by physics to 40%.
Physics want to know.
LOL "limited to 40%" Whatever do you mean by that?

We only skim the available energy from renewables. Is all that we do not convert to electricity somehow "lost" or "wasted" because our solar panels are only 15-30% efficient?

Lets look at two hypothetical solar panels, one twice as efficient as the other. Is the one that is twice as "efficient" better than the other at delivering usable electricity? Not at all necessarily, and in fact at the current state of technology the very high-efficient ones are so expensive they are only useful in extreme situations such as satellites.

Obviously, those with double output will take up half the space, but do we actually have a shortage of space to put solar panels? Hardly. Aside from vast deserts, lakes and oceans every rooftop, parking lot and road is available space. We also don't know that two panels necessarily use more materials or cost more to install. Is the more efficient also more than twice as heavy? Perhaps the less efficient can just be installed in rolls across flat roofs at far less expense. Does one have a useful life several times longer than the other?

The main point is that conversion efficiency is not at all the same thing, and is far less important, than overall efficiency in delivering energy where it is needed, when it is needed in the form it is needed.

That's technology managing physics.
 
LOL "limited to 40%" Whatever do you mean by that?

We only skim the available energy from renewables. Is all that we do not convert to electricity somehow "lost" or "wasted" because our solar panels are only 15-30% efficient?

Lets look at two hypothetical solar panels, one twice as efficient as the other. Is the one that is twice as "efficient" better than the other at delivering usable electricity? Not at all necessarily, and in fact at the current state of technology the very high-efficient ones are so expensive they are only useful in extreme situations such as satellites.

Obviously, those with double output will take up half the space, but do we actually have a shortage of space to put solar panels? Hardly. Aside from vast deserts, lakes and oceans every rooftop, parking lot and road is available space. We also don't know that two panels necessarily use more materials or cost more to install. Is the more efficient also more than twice as heavy? Perhaps the less efficient can just be installed in rolls across flat roofs at far less expense. Does one have a useful life several times longer than the other?

The main point is that conversion efficiency is not at all the same thing, and is far less important, than overall efficiency in delivering energy where it is needed, when it is needed in the form it is needed.

That's technology managing physics.

Wut?
 
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If by 'deal with' you mean warm the planet, then sure. But I find your approach unappealing.
Your simplistic view is blind to externalities
Well not producing and distributing energy is far more unappealing, and you simply cannot do it without waste. All the solar energy falling on the planet is warming it. The reason hydrocarbon solutions are, to put it mildly, undesirable is that they are unlocking vast amounts of elements that had been safely locked away which threaten human civilization. Not the planet itself mind you, that has happily been though enormously greater changes, no just threatening us and how we've become comfortable on it.
 
An example is not enough?

How can I put it more simply for you?

It is not the theoretical efficiency of the physics that counts. It is the overall economic efficiency of harvesting, putting into usable form and distributing it where it is needed that matters.

So get over your calculations of conversion, distribution and other losses. We have inexhaustible, and for all human needs, virtually unlimited amounts of energy available to capture. We just have to continue to develop the technology to do it in ways that are economically practical.

You have made no arguments that show physics prevents that.

Hydrogen is one candidate because it can store energy at useful density and release it on demand, and importantly, not only as a compressed gas. Batteries do that too, so they are competing technologies. Stationary energy storage opens up even more possibilities. All that competition is a good thing.
 
LOL "limited to 40%" Whatever do you mean by that?

We only skim the available energy from renewables. Is all that we do not convert to electricity somehow "lost" or "wasted" because our solar panels are only 15-30% efficient?

Not really an apples-apples comparison. If I have a solar panel that's 10% efficient I'm not paying for the 90% of photons that aren't captured. If you have an electrolyzer that's 60% efficient so you get 6kWh of H2 for every 10kWh of electricity you're paying for 10kWh of electricity and only getting 6kWh of H2. THEN... when you use your 6kWh of H2 to drive a motor you only get ~4kWh of electricity. You still paid for the 6kWh of H2 and the 10kWh of electricity you started with. Unlike sunlight the 10kWh of electricity you started with wasn't free.

'Inefficient' Solar panels make sense because we're starting with more sunlight than we can possibly use and it's free. Similarly H2 as an automotive fuel won't make sense until the same can be said of electricity from solar or wind.... we need to have more of it that we can possibly use and it needs to be ~free.
 
Not really an apples-apples comparison. If I have a solar panel that's 10% efficient I'm not paying for the 90% of photons that aren't captured. If you have an electrolyzer that's 60% efficient so you get 6kWh of H2 for every 10kWh of electricity you're paying for 10kWh of electricity and only getting 6kWh of H2. THEN... when you use your 6kWh of H2 to drive a motor you only get ~4kWh of electricity. You still paid for the 6kWh of H2 and the 10kWh of electricity you started with. Unlike sunlight the 10kWh of electricity you started with wasn't free.
It was if it came from the sunlight.

You're not grasping that the steps along the way do not matter, only the overall economic results from input to ultimate use, including any negative environmental effects because that's why we can't continue to use hydrocarbons.
 
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It was if it came from the sunlight.

Elaborate. How are we making H2 from sunlight? Electrolysis from solar PV? There isn't enough. Why waste 10kWh of electricity from solar to make displace 4kWh of fools fuel with H2 when we can use the same 10kWh to displace 8kWh of fools fuel with a BEV?

'Inefficient' Solar panels make sense because we're starting with more sunlight than we can possibly use and it's free. Similarly H2 as an automotive fuel won't make sense until the same can be said of electricity from solar or wind.... we need to have more of it than we can possibly use and it needs to be ~free.

I totally agree that if we get to the point that we're flooded with an excess of energy from solar and wind, we have nothing better to do with it than split water AND all the things we need H2 for are satisfied using surplus H2 to power cars will make sense. That's at least ~50 years away. But at that point we could probably just start sticking Cs from atmospheric CO2 back onto the Hs and make C8H18....
 
Elaborate. How are we making H2 from sunlight? Electrolysis from solar PV? There isn't enough. Why waste 10kWh of electricity from solar to make displace 4kWh of fools fuel with H2 when we can use the same 10kWh to displace 8kWh of fools fuel with a BEV?

'Inefficient' Solar panels make sense because we're starting with more sunlight than we can possibly use and it's free. Similarly H2 as an automotive fuel won't make sense until the same can be said of electricity from solar or wind.... we need to have more of it than we can possibly use and it needs to be ~free.

I totally agree that if we get to the point that we're flooded with an excess of energy from solar and wind, we have nothing better to do with it than split water AND all the things we need H2 for are satisfied using surplus H2 to power cars will make sense. That's at least ~50 years away. But at that point we could probably just start sticking Cs from atmospheric CO2 back onto the Hs and make C8H18....
Electrolysis is how we do it now though projects are underway to do it directly from sunlight. The answer to "There isn't enough." is that we have to build more until there is enough, as we are doing ever more efficiently and economically as we continuously improve the technology and processes.

The fact is that currently there are times when we produce so much surplus electricity from wind and solar that producers actually pay to dispose of it.

You have the same issue with renewables as you do with conventional, that you first have to build enough capacity, with reserves for all of your needs, including downtimes for maintenance and failures. With renewables, due to intermittence when the sun isn't shining or the wind isn't blowing it just needs to be larger to account for whatever inefficiencies result from having to store power for those periods.

The only criteria is that you are able to do that economically, not how much of it you lose as waste along the way. Of course reducing inefficiencies and waste where you can helps with that, and doing so is a competitive advantage for one method over another. Once again though, whatever the intermediates, only the overall economics can ever ultimately matter.

Stationary onsite storage offers more options but those do include the two we have been discussing, batteries and hydrogen. For vehicles, battery power must be transmitted over the grid with its inherent losses and waste heat production, then batteries must be charged with that loss and the waste heat produced by both charging and discharging of batteries.

Hydrogen however can be produced for vehicle fuel either onsite and in conjunction with stationary use and then transported, or at distributed locations drawing power from the electrical grid. In either case that production can be easily managed to balance production and demand on the power grid, which would be a far far more complex and challenging task to do with many millions of batteries charging at consumer discretion.

There are also multiple ways to store and transport hydrogen, not just as a compressed gas, and as a gas it can be distributed both in tanks and via pipelines.

Do not misunderstand me. I am not advocating for hydrogen. I am challenging the claim we can't manage the physics to make it a competitive and viable alternative.
 
Do not misunderstand me. I am not advocating for hydrogen. I am challenging the claim we can't manage the physics to make it a competitive and viable alternative.

Um.... yeah.... like I said....

I totally agree that if we get to the point that we're flooded with an excess of energy from solar and wind, we have nothing better to do with it than split water AND all the things we need H2 for are satisfied using surplus H2 to power cars will make sense. That's at least ~50 years away. But at that point we could probably just start sticking Cs from atmospheric CO2 back onto the Hs and make C8H18....

But that's not really 'managing' physics. That's overwhelming it by attrition. More to the point that's so far down the road it's not even remotely a solution to climate change. We can't rely on an overwhelming surplus of clean energy, we also need to be smart about using what we have in the mean time.
 
Um.... yeah.... like I said....

I totally agree that if we get to the point that we're flooded with an excess of energy from solar and wind, we have nothing better to do with it than split water AND all the things we need H2 for are satisfied using surplus H2 to power cars will make sense. That's at least ~50 years away. But at that point we could probably just start sticking Cs from atmospheric CO2 back onto the Hs and make C8H18....

But that's not really 'managing' physics. That's overwhelming it by attrition. More to the point that's so far down the road it's not even remotely a solution to climate change. We can't rely on an overwhelming surplus of clean energy, we also need to be smart about using what we have in the mean time.
We absolutely do not need to get to a point where "we're flooded with excess energy" to make a product that justifies its input costs.

As soon as the value of green (not blue) hydrogen exceeds its input costs is exactly when we should start producing it. Oh wow, that's right now, we are already doing that.

It's not yet cost effective for every use case, but it is happening. The more we are able to beat down the obstacles with technology, yes by attrition because that's how it's done, the more will be produced and used. That is managing physics.

Personally I love my battery car, but that's me, and the place we are now. But if something else works even better for me in the future and costs less I'll be all for it.
 
The fact is that currently there are times when we produce so much surplus electricity from wind and solar that producers actually pay to dispose of it.
How to store energy generated during the day and using it in the evening is one of the main issues with solar energy and the unpredictable wind energy.

Generating hydrogen as storage medium is one option, when no other more economical solution can be selected.
 
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We absolutely do not need to get to a point where "we're flooded with excess energy" to make a product that justifies its input costs.

???? Which part of H2 uses ~2-3x more energy than a BEV confuses you?

It's like flying vs driving LA => NY. If you want to drive instead of fly you're gonna need more time because physics. If you want a H2 economy you're gonna need more energy because physics. So.... yeah.... we really do need to be 'flooded with excess clean energy' because...... physics.

And we already have a YUGE H2 deficit. What sense would it make to divert H2 into a car while we're still making H2 from CH4 for other things we need H2 for?
 
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How to store energy generated during the day and using it in the evening is one of the main issues with solar energy and the unpredictable wind energy.

Generating hydrogen as storage medium is one option, when no other more economical solution can be selected.
I'm afraid I don't get your point. How is the case different for hydrogen than for every other storage option? Are you saying there can be only one option? And that of all options, for some reason hydrogen should be the last choice? I don't understand. We produce electricity in numerous ways. Why wouldn't it be reasonable to store it multiple ways, including hydrogen?
 
???? Which part of H2 uses ~2-3x more energy than a BEV confuses you?

It's like flying vs driving LA => NY. If you want to drive instead of fly you're gonna need more time because physics. If you want a H2 economy you're gonna need more energy because physics. So.... yeah.... we really do need to be 'flooded with excess clean energy' because...... physics.

And we already have a YUGE H2 deficit. What sense would it make to divert H2 into a car while we're still making H2 from CH4 for other things we need H2 for?
LOLOL. We do both, drive from LA => NY and fly. We have reasons for doing both. Apparently you are the one who is confused about that.

When the value of hydrogen in a use case exceeds the cost of its inputs we will produce it, whether you think those inputs should be used otherwise "because physics" or not.
 
When the value of hydrogen in a use case exceeds the cost of its inputs we will produce it, whether you think those inputs should be used otherwise "because physics" or not.

What exactly is the benefit of a H2 car? The benefit of an EV is that it reduces energy use by >50% and it can use otherwise curtailed (wasted) renewable energy. A H2 car does neither of those. It uses the same if not slightly more primary energy than an ICE and it relies on H2 infrastructure. Even if the H2 it uses was derived from a clean source that H2 could have been used to displace FF CH4 on a >1:1 basis. Until we're 'flooded with surplus RE' you're investing in a new fleet of vehicles and infrastructure while accomplishing nothing.

We are not in a position that we can afford to spend $$$ without accomplishing anything....

For context our H2 debt is 74B kg/yr of which ~half is needed for ammonia production so it's not displaced by using less oil. ~95% of that comes from the steam reforming of CH4. That's a least ~30B kg of H2 we need to produce from electrolysis. That's >1200TWh of energy required just to meet our current H2 debt. >25% of US electric use. Until that debt is met H2 cars are just CH4 powered cars.

AND.... AND that's not including future drivers of H2 demand like aviation and steel production. It's just insane to waste H2 in cars. Because.... physics ;)
 
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I'm afraid I don't get your point. How is the case different for hydrogen than for every other storage option? Are you saying there can be only one option? And that of all options, for some reason hydrogen should be the last choice? I don't understand. We produce electricity in numerous ways. Why wouldn't it be reasonable to store it multiple ways, including hydrogen?
My point is, in the case of green energy, how to store energy to make it available when needed.

Yes, there are many options such as (not in any specific order):

- pomping water to a higher level.
- similar idea, moving up some weights.
- batteries storage.
- generating hydrogen.
- heating water in a closed circuit and use a thermal exchanger.
- freewheel (with no friction using superconducting magnets).
- ...


Now what solution is preferable is really up to who ever has to make decisions.
I could only paraphrase: "Do what you can, with what you have, where you are." Theodore Roosevelt
 
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