Hydrogen vs. Battery

[daniel]

Welcome back Daniel !

I've been around, but thanks.

POV, and the same can be said for electricity

Yes.

It is not [hard to produce]. It is inefficient to produce

Semantics. But yes, your wording is better.

Hydrogen is flammable, must be pressurized, hard to contain, and a brittling agent. Oh, and when oxidized, 40% conversion losses.

It is a little bit better than hydrocarbons ... at best.

Yes.

Though if you'll forgive me for nitpicking a word after you brought up my use of "hard," I'll say that flammable is not actually a word. Hydrogen is inflammable. Tanker trucks use "flammable" because the correct word confuses semi-literate (i.e. most) people.

When I lived in Spokane I used to say that my car ran on water, because all my electricity came from hydro (which, yes, comes from solar power but I enjoyed the play on the water-for-gas internet scam). Now that I get my electricity from solar I've been in the habit of saying that my car is thermonuclear-powered. But I think I'm going to start saying that it is hydrogen-powered.

 

[JRP3]

Though if you'll forgive me for nitpicking a word after you brought up my use of "hard," I'll say that flammable is not actually a word.

To continue the nitpicking, dictionaries would disagree that it's not actually a word.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Though if you'll forgive me for nitpicking a word after you brought up my use of "hard," I'll say that flammable is not actually a word. Hydrogen is inflammable. Tanker trucks use "flammable" because the correct word confuses semi-literate (i.e. most) people.

The word was created in the 1920s. Having been used for about a century, I think we can call it real.

Besides, think of the cost and energy savings.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

The output of the fuel cell is electricity and water.

And heat.

 

[Merrill]

Maui no ka oi

 

[SageBrush]

I'll say that flammable is not actually a word

You caught me, and taught me something.
What *is* the the correct word ? Volatile ? Highly combustible ? (That sounds like RUD)

Addendum: As a poorly educated 'Merkin, I bring to the discussion wikipedia

A combustible material is something that can combust (burn) in air. Flammable materials are combustible materials that ignite easily at ambient temperatures. In other words, a combustible material ignites with some effort and a flammable material catches fire immediately on exposure to flame.

The degree of flammability or combustibility in air depends largely upon the volatility of the material - this is related to its composition-specific vapour pressure, which is temperature dependent.

 

[daniel]

The proper word is inflammable. But semi-literate people confuse "in" (which is an integral part of the word "inflame") for the prefix "un" which is often put before a word to negate it. So the fake word "flammable" was invented, and dictionaries include it so people would understand what it's intended to mean. It's a fake invented word that dictionaries accept in order to reduce the likelihood of tanker explosions.

Maui no ka oi

Indeed!

 

[JRP3]

It's a fake invented word that dictionaries accept in order to reduce the likelihood of tanker explosions.

Every word was invented. Languages change over time.

 

[Merrill]

The proper word is inflammable. But semi-literate people confuse "in" (which is an integral part of the word "inflame") for the prefix "un" which is often put before a word to negate it. So the fake word "flammable" was invented, and dictionaries include it so people would understand what it's intended to mean. It's a fake invented word that dictionaries accept in order to reduce the likelihood of tanker explosions.



Indeed!

My wife and I ran off to Maui in the early 70’s to get married, we love Hawaii been to all the islands over the years.

 

[daniel]

My wife and I ran off to Maui in the early 70’s to get married, we love Hawaii been to all the islands over the years.

I've actually never been to any of the other islands except the Big Island (which I didn't much care for) and I once changed planes in Oahu IIRC. I came to Maui because I had decided to do a paddling trip (having previously fallen in love with paddling) and my research led me to choose a paddling outfitter here. I loved it so much I kept coming back and finally decided this was the place for me. Now I belong to three paddling clubs and I have my own OC2 and I paddle most mornings. If you come back you can PM me for recommendations on paddling opportunities.

 

[SageBrush]

It's a fake invented word that dictionaries accept in order to reduce the likelihood of tanker explosions.

Not a bad reason.

Thanks for the digression, it was interesting.

 

[Merrill]

I've actually never been to any of the other islands except the Big Island (which I didn't much care for) and I once changed planes in Oahu IIRC. I came to Maui because I had decided to do a paddling trip (having previously fallen in love with paddling) and my research led me to choose a paddling outfitter here. I loved it so much I kept coming back and finally decided this was the place for me. Now I belong to three paddling clubs and I have my own OC2 and I paddle most mornings. If you come back you can PM me for recommendations on paddling opportunities.

Are your paddling boards powered by hydrogen.

 

[bobby g]

Every word was invented. Languages change over time.

Yes, so Daniel should have said "flammable" was a new word. When there's a need, or a use, a word will arise - like nature abhors a vacuum

 

[daniel]

Are your paddling boards powered by hydrogen.

I don't use a paddle board. I tried one once, in Belize, and it was too hard on my bad back. I used to paddle kayaks but quit when I got my OC2 (two-man outrigger canoe), which I paddle with a buddy, because it's faster and more seaworthy than the kayaks we were using. The kayaks were very stable but too hard to control in rough, windy conditions. I don't have a picture of my OC2 but this is a promotional picture from the manufacturer of the same make and model as mine:

The one in the picture has a nicer paint job than mine. I got mine used so didn't get to pick the paint job.

And in six-man outrigger canoes with three different paddling clubs:

I'm in seat 3. We paddled from Canoe Beach just north of Lahaina to the harbor on Lana'i, 18 miles; and then we paddled back the next day. We had two crews and we switched about every 45 minutes:

One crew jumps off the support boat and swims to the canoe. The paddlers jump out and the fresh crew climbs in. Then the support boat picks up the swimmers. This was the 2019 Paddle for Life to raise money for the Pacific Cancer Foundation. It was a blast!

The boats are powered by our own muscles.

A nice video of a boat from the Hawaiian Outrigger Canoe Voyaging Society (wearevoyagers dot org). I'm in seat two:

I recommend watching the video on Vimeo and using fullscreen.

 

[Guy V]

Condensation requires energy in form of drag and pumps / fans consumption. Released energy you can use if you connect your hydrogen car to central district heating system pipe...

But you don't know that. You can only guess the process and the output parameters. Fuel cells already manage complex hydration issues, this would be just one more, and a pretty simple one at that. It isn't as if you are getting something for nothing. The hydrogen still has to be put in and oxygen extracted from the air. I just doubt that the water input is a serious problem at all.

 

[Electroman]

I don't use a paddle board. I tried one once, in Belize, and it was too hard on my bad back. I used to paddle kayaks but quit when I got my OC2 (two-man outrigger canoe), which I paddle with a buddy, because it's faster and more seaworthy than the kayaks we were using. The kayaks were very stable but too hard to control in rough, windy conditions. I don't have a picture of my OC2 but this is a promotional picture from the manufacturer of the same make and model as mine:

The one in the picture has a nicer paint job than mine. I got mine used so didn't get to pick the paint job.

And in six-man outrigger canoes with three different paddling clubs:

I'm in seat 3. We paddled from Canoe Beach just north of Lahaina to the harbor on Lana'i, 18 miles; and then we paddled back the next day. We had two crews and we switched about every 45 minutes:

One crew jumps off the support boat and swims to the canoe. The paddlers jump out and the fresh crew climbs in. Then the support boat picks up the swimmers. This was the 2019 Paddle for Life to raise money for the Pacific Cancer Foundation. It was a blast!

The boats are powered by our own muscles.

A nice video of a boat from the Hawaiian Outrigger Canoe Voyaging Society (wearevoyagers dot org). I'm in seat two:

I recommend watching the video on Vimeo and using fullscreen.

That video with a soothing music was just lovely.

What is the little thing that juts out on the left side of the boat? Is that for stability? If so should you not have one on the other side too?

 

[brucet999]

What *is* the the correct word ? Volatile ? Highly combustible ?

Volatile has nothing whatever to do with being flammable or explosive. Water is a volatile compound, and non-combustible chlorinated solvents like trichloroethane are very volatile. All volatile means is "evaporates readily".

 

[daniel]

That video with a soothing music was just lovely.

What is the little thing that juts out on the left side of the boat? Is that for stability? If so should you not have one on the other side too?

I presume you mean the ama (outrigger) It's the thing that gives an outrigger canoe the first half of its name. And yes, it's for stability. Outrigger canoes are intended for the open ocean even though many canoe clubs (including two of mine) restrict ourselves to relatively calm water. The ama is typically on the left. On ours it's always on the left, though I've seen surfing videos where it's on the right. I don't know but I speculate that a right-handed ama might be because of the direction of the surf break.

Why not two?

The canoe would be impossible to keep upright without the ama. The original Polynesian canoes were dugout logs and in the ocean they'd tip right over. ("Huli" is the Hawaiian word for capsizing. It can be noun --a tipover-- or verb --the act of tipping over--.) The canoe cannot huli to the left unless there's a huge wave (which can happen in big surf) because the ama is buoyant. The weight of the ama resists a huli to the right, but it happens. All it takes is for a couple of people to lean too far to the right.

But here's the thing: If the canoe gets completely swamped by a big wave you cannot bail it out because with the gunwale at the water line any little ripple will bring water back into the boat faster than you can bail. But if you huli (by accident or on purpose) the act of pushing/pulling the ama over the boat to right it dumps about half the water out. Now the gunwale is sufficiently above the water line that you can bail. So if the boat is swamped you can huli, then right the boat, and then bail. With two amas you could not do this. There are double-hull canoes that have a second hull where the ama would be instead of the ama. These canoes are extremely stable and are almost impossible to huli. For this reason we cannot take them into rough water because if they swamp there's nothing you can do but call for a rescue.

BTW, notice how the guy in seat 6 sometimes stops paddling and puts his paddle in the water next to the boat? He's the steersman. These boats have no rudder. The steersman steers by "poking" (what you see him doing there with his paddle) or by various kinds of strokes. It's not easy. If you're curious, find John Puakea on YouTube. He has instructional videos on paddling and steering.

And all this because somebody jokingly asked if my "boards" were powered by hydrogen. Paddling has been my cardio, my recreation, my social life, and my passion since moving here a bit over two years ago.

 

[Merrill]

I presume you mean the ama (outrigger) It's the thing that gives an outrigger canoe the first half of its name. And yes, it's for stability. Outrigger canoes are intended for the open ocean even though many canoe clubs (including two of mine) restrict ourselves to relatively calm water. The ama is typically on the left. On ours it's always on the left, though I've seen surfing videos where it's on the right. I don't know but I speculate that a right-handed ama might be because of the direction of the surf break.

Why not two?

The canoe would be impossible to keep upright without the ama. The original Polynesian canoes were dugout logs and in the ocean they'd tip right over. ("Huli" is the Hawaiian word for capsizing. It can be noun --a tipover-- or verb --the act of tipping over--.) The canoe cannot huli to the left unless there's a huge wave (which can happen in big surf) because the ama is buoyant. The weight of the ama resists a huli to the right, but it happens. All it takes is for a couple of people to lean too far to the right.

But here's the thing: If the canoe gets completely swamped by a big wave you cannot bail it out because with the gunwale at the water line any little ripple will bring water back into the boat faster than you can bail. But if you huli (by accident or on purpose) the act of pushing/pulling the ama over the boat to right it dumps about half the water out. Now the gunwale is sufficiently above the water line that you can bail. So if the boat is swamped you can huli, then right the boat, and then bail. With two amas you could not do this. There are double-hull canoes that have a second hull where the ama would be instead of the ama. These canoes are extremely stable and are almost impossible to huli. For this reason we cannot take them into rough water because if they swamp there's nothing you can do but call for a rescue.

BTW, notice how the guy in seat 6 sometimes stops paddling and puts his paddle in the water next to the boat? He's the steersman. These boats have no rudder. The steersman steers by "poking" (what you see him doing there with his paddle) or by various kinds of strokes. It's not easy. If you're curious, find John Puakea on YouTube. He has instructional videos on paddling and steering.

And all this because somebody jokingly asked if my "boards" were powered by hydrogen. Paddling has been my cardio, my recreation, my social life, and my passion since moving here a bit over two years ago.

Very interesting info, I only asked about powering the canoe by hydrogen to keep this thread on subject.

 

[Electroman]

Thank you. Very nice explanation. I thought long and hard to guess the reason why there is only one "ama", but now it is clear.