I am now planning to get the full self-driving option and here is why

[Barklikeadog]

I'm confused. The very paragraph that you quote and bolded says that Tesla cannot promise when FSD will be available. So how can it be more than a promise?

Are we really going to get into the definition of promise? This will be like the 'bricked' thread.

I have to assume that when FSD option is purchased, the buyer is given paperwork describing what they are buying.

 

[Barklikeadog]

What on earth are you reading? They say they are developing the ability to do those things and expressly state that adoption is dependent on other outside factors beyond Tesla's control and you sight that as a broken promise? REALLY?

Wow...your true colors are shining through.

Dan

Yea... it's crazy of me to question the selling of a product that may never be legal or delivered to the buyer.

 

[Dr. J]

What's the word for something that's more than a promise?

 

[diplomat33]

When you read the FSD paragraph, it is crystal clear that Tesla did not guarantee anything!

 

[Dr. J]

When you read the FSD paragraph, it is crystal clear that Tesla did not guarantee anything!

Agreed!

 

[Bartman1]

I configured on 2/14 with EAP and kind of wish I had not opted for the 5K EAP option.... we have it on our S and don't think we've gotten anywhere near 5K-Worth out of it. My wife has never used it and I've used it just a few times on longer trips..... So on one hand, I feel like it was a big mistake because 5K is a good sum of money that I feel is kind of a waste..... but on the other hand my FOMO got the best of me and I was worried I'd miss it for some reason.... So I think it's a waste of money but my FOMO made me do it ..... Like I'll be showing someone the car and they will say "Hey. can I try the thing where it drives by itself, and I"ll say this one can't do that....." Then I'll feel bad I don't have it.....

 

[diplomat33]

I configured on 2/14 with EAP and kind of wish I had not opted for the 5K EAP option.... we have it on our S and don't think we've gotten anywhere near 5K-Worth out of it. My wife has never used it and I've used it just a few times on longer trips..... So on one hand, I feel like it was a big mistake because 5K is a good sum of money that I feel is kind of a waste..... but on the other hand my FOMO got the best of me and I was worried I'd miss it for some reason.... So I think it's a waste of money but my FOMO made me do it ..... Like I'll be showing someone the car and they will say "Hey. can I try the thing where it drives by itself, and I"ll say this one can't do that....." Then I'll feel bad I don't have it.....

It is not necessarily a waste of money because EAP will improve a lot over time. So I think it will be something you will be able to use a lot more in the near future. Also, EAP is a prerequisite for FSD so in a way, you made a down payment towards FSD. When FSD is available, you will pay less for it since you already paid for EAP and you will be able to show off real FSD to your friends.

 

[ohmman]

A contract. The paperwork they give you when you pay for the not-yet-given feature.

Show me a copy of a purchase agreement (this is what it’s called) that specifies anything about FSD.

editing to add that I'm not suggesting this doesn't exist. I've just not seen it.

Also -- I'm not excusing Tesla on being overly optimistic, or even unfairly optimistic about this. I'm just having trouble with poorly constructed arguments.

 

[diplomat33]

Are we really going to get into the definition of promise? .

"It is not possible to know exactly when each element of the functionality described above will be available, as this is highly dependent on local regulatory approval."

That is very clearly not a promise.

 

[Barklikeadog]

"It is not possible to know exactly when each element of the functionality described above will be available, as this is highly dependent on local regulatory approval."

That is very clearly not a promise.

Ah so they said -when- not -if-
So Tesla is saying that these features currently exist and are being held back by local regulatory approval?
Is regulatory approval holding back the LA to NY autopilot trip?

promise
noun
1.
a declaration that something will or will not be done, given, etc.,
2.
an express assurance on which expectation is to be based:
3.
something that has the effect of an express assurance; indication of what may be expected.

I should go look up 'brick'

 

[Jays200]

The Canadian Ghost Town That Tesla Is Bringing Back to Life
Lessons From the Oracle: Warren Buffett's Shareholder Letter, Annotated

Cobalt, the heart of darkness in the shiny electric car story
Cobalt, the heart of darkness in the shiny electric car story


Don't be using that mobile phone "Barklikeadog", that battery inside it has Cobolt in it.
The car/battery manufacturers are aware and taking steps to make sure this "dark side of Cobalt" is reduced/eliminated.

I refrained from doing similar searches for the effect the fuel exploration/mining/refining your truck uses has on the planet but coincidentally watched this very enlightening documentary from DW in Germany. You should watch it too.

 

[Barklikeadog]

The Canadian Ghost Town That Tesla Is Bringing Back to Life
Lessons From the Oracle: Warren Buffett's Shareholder Letter, Annotated

Cobalt, the heart of darkness in the shiny electric car story
Cobalt, the heart of darkness in the shiny electric car story


Don't be using that mobile phone "Barklikeadog", that battery inside it has Cobolt in it.
The car/battery manufacturers are aware and taking steps to make sure this "dark side of Cobalt" is reduced/eliminated.

I refrained from doing similar searches for the effect the fuel exploration/mining/refining your truck uses has on the planet but coincidentally watched this very enlightening documentary from DW in Germany. You should watch it too.

I guess you missed the post where I said that I am not in denial.

 

[Dr. J]

So on one hand, I feel like it was a big mistake because 5K is a good sum of money that I feel is kind of a waste..... but on the other hand my FOMO got the best of me and I was worried I'd miss it for some reason.... So I think it's a waste of money but my FOMO made me do it

And here's your t-shirt!

 

[Dan Detweiler]

Yea... it's crazy of me to question the selling of a product that may never be legal or delivered to the buyer.

A product that was clearly stated as a work in progress that everyone knew up front was a work in progress and that chose of their own free will to invest in that product as an option to their car. Nothing hidden, nothing obscure, nothing underhanded. People chose to add that option if they wished.

Dan

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

"It is not possible to know exactly when each element of the functionality described above will be available, as this is highly dependent on local regulatory approval."

That is very clearly not a promise.

But, they are very clear with the promise that every AP2 car is FSD capable.

Which I find extremely problematic as Tesla is fully aware that they don't know what the regs will require.

So the promise of being capable of FSD should have never been made.

At the end of the day if it did come down to regs I think most people would cut Tesla some slack if, and only if Tesla's attempt was a reasonable attempt. I don't think what Tesla has for AP2/AP2.5 qualifies as a reasonable attempt to get Level 4 or above self-driving.

The $3K for FSD isn't supposed to be speculative. We can't victim blame people getting the package. There is a promise by the manufacture by the fact that Tesla is selling the package.

 

[Dan Detweiler]

But, they are very clear with the promise that every AP2 car is FSD capable.

Which I find extremely problematic as Tesla is fully aware that they don't know what the regs will require.

So the promise of being capable of FSD should have never been made.

At the end of the day if it did come down to regs I think most people would cut Tesla some slack if, and only if Tesla's attempt was a reasonable attempt. I don't think what Tesla has for AP2/AP2.5 qualifies as a reasonable attempt to get Level 4 or above self-driving.

The $3K for FSD isn't supposed to be speculative. We can't victim blame people getting the package. There is a promise by the manufacture by the fact that Tesla is selling the package.

Nope, gotta respectfully disagree with you. Again, in my mind (and I will be ordering FSD) Tesla has not "promised" anything. They have stated that they feel all the hardware they will need is in the car. So, what happens if it turns out they can't for whatever reason? Then I believe they will do whatever upgrades are necessary on the cars of the owners who ponied up the money up front. Is THAT guaranteed? Nope, but I do believe they will do it. Call it faith, call it stupidity, call it what you will. But, it is my choice in the end. I do not fell like Tesla is being disingenuous. I do not feel like I am being taken in any way, and like I said, I will be spending my money on this option.

Dan

 

[diplomat33]

But, they are very clear with the promise that every AP2 car is FSD capable.

Which I find extremely problematic as Tesla is fully aware that they don't know what the regs will require.

So the promise of being capable of FSD should have never been made.

At the end of the day if it did come down to regs I think most people would cut Tesla some slack if, and only if Tesla's attempt was a reasonable attempt. I don't think what Tesla has for AP2/AP2.5 qualifies as a reasonable attempt to get Level 4 or above self-driving.

The $3K for FSD isn't supposed to be speculative. We can't victim blame people getting the package. There is a promise by the manufacture by the fact that Tesla is selling the package.

I think we can safely assume that if Tesla says that AP2 is FSD capable, it is because their engineers are reasonably confident that it is. Now, it is possible that they could be wrong of course. But based on what they know, I think they honestly believe that AP2 is good enough for FSD. But what I see is a lot of folks who are probably not computer scientists or engineers just assuming that AP2 is not capable of FSD simply based on their own "feelings". They think that FSD requires LIDAR or requires more computer power etc... so they feel that AP2 is not able to FSD and based on those feelings, act like it is a certainty that Tesla is not keeping their promise for FSD.

The bottom line is that we don't know yet if AP2 is able to do FSD because we have not seen Tesla's FSD yet. Now, if Tesla admits AP2 is insufficient and announced an AP3 or if Tesla releases FSD and it is not very good, then yes, we can start saying that Tesla fell short of their promise that AP2 would deliver FSD. But until, then, let's wait and see.

 

[CBPfromTN]

Maybe. I think Tesla used to have a description of Smart Summon on the website where the car can pull out of your garage and transition around a curved driveway to pick you up in front of your house. So Smart Summon may be that instead. At this point, I don't think we really know what Smart Summon will be. Tesla has seemed to drop talking about it. It is no longer on the website as far as I can tell. I suspect that Tesla has decided to just focus on FSD rather than promise specific features. Once, FSD is achieved, it will be a moot point because the car will be able to do those features and more.



If Smart Summon is what I described above, just going around a curved driveaway to pick you up, I believe that feature used to be listed under Enhanced Autopilot. However, what you describe would certainly be part of FSD, yes. In fact, your scenario was seen in reverse in the FSD video where the car drops the driver off and then finds a parking space on its own. So, you would be correct that your scenario would only be possible with FSD. It would not be released before FSD.



It sounds like you are having a hard time grasping the concept of FSD. But real FSD when fully implemented, will actually work really well and no, it won't kill anyone in the parking lot. In fact, FSD would be better than a human. I am a young able bodied person but I was recently pulling out backwards from a parking space at WalMart, very slowly, when a couple banged on my trunk. They were walking past me as I was pulling out and came inches from my trunk. I never saw them despite checking my rear mirrors because they were in my car's blind spot. That cannot happen with a FSD car because it has no blind spots. Every AP2 Tesla actually has ultrasonic sensors able to detect close objects like a pedestrian and stop before hitting them.



No, I doubt think Smart Summon, as you describe it, will be available this year4 or before FSD since it would require FSD to work. But what you describe would be part of FSD. Once FSD is released, the car will be able to do what you describe and it will work really well. I believe that FSD in beta form will probably be released early next year (2019).

Nope, I get the concept of FSD completely. I was just curious about Smart Summon being available as it was described to me, before FSD which made no sense to me. I get it but I am not sure I will be comfortable using it, but we'll see.

ALSO, my 2016 Avalon Hybrid I just sold was able to detect a car coming (or person walking) before I would back out of a parking spot even with an SUV in both parking spaces beside me, to where I couldn't see until I had backed out a LOT more than I did. It would alert me that someone was going to be behind my car shortly and that was pretty nice. From what I understand, and maybe I am wrong, but my new Model S cannot do that and that does not make sense to me either but there again, my Avalon had rain sensing wipers when it was new 2 full years ago, so there are some things that are odd, in my opinion, about timing etc.

Bottom line, I LOVE my new Telsa. It is wildly awesome!

 

[diplomat33]

Ah so they said -when- not -if-
So Tesla is saying that these features currently exist and are being held back by local regulatory approval?
Is regulatory approval holding back the LA to NY autopilot trip?

No. Here is how I read the FSD paragraph: "we believe AP2 has the hardware necessary for FSD. Here is a description of what FSD will be able to do when it is complete. We are confident that we will achieve FSD at some point in the future but we cannot promise a specific deadline because of software testing and regulatory requirements outside our control."

Now as I see it, some people simply refuse to accept this because they have already set in their minds that FSD is impossible. As a result, they see Tesla promising something that in their minds is impossible and therefore Tesla is breaking a promise. But if you read the paragraph with an open mind, then Tesla is not breaking any promises yet because Tesla has every intention of delivering FSD at some undetermined point in the future.

 

[StraightDave]

I think most people drive a car for the experience. If you don’t want to drive, then why not Uber?