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Seriously? You compare apples (a review site) to oranges (a club/community) and drew a conclusion that they are the same. Well, ok then.
And it is amazing that the average rating on Yelp is a 1 because according to your analysis of years of research that it is notorious that more negative people than positive people post there. (rolls eyes)
Like here: Tesla Motors - Walnut Creek, CA
Or here: Tesla - Pasadena - Pasadena, CA
Or here: Tesla Motors - Near West Side - Chicago, IL
Or here: Mission Pie - Mission - San Francisco, CA (looked up apple pie instead of motherhood and apple pie)
Maybe you need to re-read all those years of studies and references that you have analyzed in the past.
So true! No one here posts that they are happy with their Tesla, or helping people by providing information about ordering, configuration, what to expect, etc or supporting people by talking about that they shouldn't worry about all the issues since Tesla service will make it right, or how to financially justify and finance a purchase, or how to get the most out of charging, etc.
Well ok then.
My eyes hurt from rolling so much.
You've got some pretty reactive responses. I had deleted a previous reply, brushing your rhetoric and patronizing posts into the garbage. I figured you to be someone that is opinionated and abrasive, unwilling to accept any professional insight. Your link to an opinion / blog about research on the "secret" of Facebook is just that. I didn't tell you what I do to flex my professional muscles, I was trying to give you a sense of where I was coming from with my information. I did not provide you years of analysis, but thanks for thinking I did. You seem to have a habit of twisting arguments and turning words around with A B apples oranges yada yada. I'm sure I will get another response of this type.
Moving on, for instance, physicians don't have time to tell you all about why they have arrived at the decision from years of reading and studying various pathology to come to your diagnosis. They just need to summarize and review the risks benefits and course of action best for you. (No, you are not entitled to a literature review) If you don't want to believe it, go find another doctor. If Google is your doctor, or a blog site with opinions, good for you. By the way, vaccines work! And before you jump on me for the MD reference, yes I'm now a non practicing physician doing economics / decisions work for corporate.
I agree this is not an official review site. It's also not Facebook. There's no filtering of the group you are part of. Your identity is also not on the hook for anything. It's not black or white. Or maybe black is white or vice versa or however you say. Hail hydra. All that important stuff you keep spouting. But if this is the forum to be heard by the most tesla followers, it serves as a pretty decent under-the-radar review site. If Tesla is kicking you in the nuts, this is a great place to do damage.
Review sites attract negative evaluations over positive ones (period) Research (actual) does reveal that two groups of customers, when people are happy with their products (or not). Of those, the unhappy ones disproportionately provide more feedback. Happy ones weren't as compelled. As a matter of fact most unhappy customers weren't all that compelled either. In fact, people in general aren't compelled to provide feedback at all. It takes a greater amount of happy points than "unhappy" points to provide feedback at all. It takes much "less" to earn bad reviews. Smart companies, often get great overall reviews, unfortunately though, it's not organic, but usually enticed, coerced, solicited etc (Repuation management, another long story). There is a lot of customer manipulation or gentle nudging in the marketing world. You don't have to believe it. You also don't have to get vaccines.
Your condescending language is unfortunate and brings out the worst. I hope you resolve whatever upsets you so greatly. (rolls eyes) Yes, it's annoying.
Moving on, for instance, physicians don't have time to tell you all about why they have arrived at the decision from years of reading and studying various pathology to come to your diagnosis. They just need to summarize and review the risks benefits and course of action best for you. (No, you are not entitled to a literature review) If you don't want to believe it, go find another doctor. If Google is your doctor, or a blog site with opinions, good for you. By the way, vaccines work! And before you jump on me for the MD reference, yes I'm now a non practicing physician doing economics / decisions work for corporate.
I agree this is not an official review site. It's also not Facebook. There's no filtering of the group you are part of. Your identity is also not on the hook for anything. It's not black or white. Or maybe black is white or vice versa or however you say. Hail hydra. All that important stuff you keep spouting. But if this is the forum to be heard by the most tesla followers, it serves as a pretty decent under-the-radar review site. If Tesla is kicking you in the nuts, this is a great place to do damage.
Review sites attract negative evaluations over positive ones (period) Research (actual) does reveal that two groups of customers, when people are happy with their products (or not). Of those, the unhappy ones disproportionately provide more feedback. Happy ones weren't as compelled. As a matter of fact most unhappy customers weren't all that compelled either. In fact, people in general aren't compelled to provide feedback at all. It takes a greater amount of happy points than "unhappy" points to provide feedback at all. It takes much "less" to earn bad reviews. Smart companies, often get great overall reviews, unfortunately though, it's not organic, but usually enticed, coerced, solicited etc (Repuation management, another long story). There is a lot of customer manipulation or gentle nudging in the marketing world. You don't have to believe it. You also don't have to get vaccines.
Your condescending language is unfortunate and brings out the worst. I hope you resolve whatever upsets you so greatly. (rolls eyes) Yes, it's annoying.
davidc18
Active Member
Big thread that probably could have been avoided if Tesla didn't post such a huge range hit - since I am of the opinion that it is unlikely to be that bad.
Am I right - the wheel is the same size - so no aero hit. The combined tire/rim should have the same (or very close) overall size. Then it comes to rubber. Of course performance tires are worse that all seasons particularly LRR tires. But 10-15%? Unlikely. And since rolling resistance factors in less as speeds increase (since aero grows faster), the hit goes down at highway speeds when range really matters.
So maybe 10% if you drive 10 mph but down to 5% at 40 mph and 3% at 70 mph.
And as someone else posted, the net effect of rolling resistance should be less than the S because the aero is worse. I find it unlikely that the X has super performance tires or that someone makes super slick 20 inch tires also.
The main thing that should matter here is the relative stickiness of 22 in X tires vs the 21 inch in the S tires.
The other option I haven't seen mentioned - does someone make 22 inch all seasons? or even better LRR? The hassle on selling the original tires is a little less (lighter) and you are guaranteed to find buyers but it will take a year or two. And the change out cost might be $1500 or so....
Am I right - the wheel is the same size - so no aero hit. The combined tire/rim should have the same (or very close) overall size. Then it comes to rubber. Of course performance tires are worse that all seasons particularly LRR tires. But 10-15%? Unlikely. And since rolling resistance factors in less as speeds increase (since aero grows faster), the hit goes down at highway speeds when range really matters.
So maybe 10% if you drive 10 mph but down to 5% at 40 mph and 3% at 70 mph.
And as someone else posted, the net effect of rolling resistance should be less than the S because the aero is worse. I find it unlikely that the X has super performance tires or that someone makes super slick 20 inch tires also.
The main thing that should matter here is the relative stickiness of 22 in X tires vs the 21 inch in the S tires.
The other option I haven't seen mentioned - does someone make 22 inch all seasons? or even better LRR? The hassle on selling the original tires is a little less (lighter) and you are guaranteed to find buyers but it will take a year or two. And the change out cost might be $1500 or so....
The 22" wheels have more rotational mass weight than the 21". And much more than the 20". The bulk of the weight moves outward from the rotational axis as well, so the bigger the wheel, the bigger the hit. I haven't done the math to calculate it, but it's not insignificant. This will affect mostly starts, but still matters to some degree under constant speed.
Calling @jerry33, who usually has good input on this type of thing.
Let's be practical here...
- The Model S weighs a lot less than the Model X
- Model S uses 21 inch wheels, vs Model X 22 inch wheels (more weight)
- 245R21 front tires for the S, vs 265R22 front tires for the X (a bit more weight)
- 265R21 staggered rears for the S, vs 285R22 staggered rears for the X. (a lot more weight)
I was at The Galleria Houston to check out the Model X on display, and those had 22 inch Good Year All Season tires.
goneskiian
Active Member
The 20's and 22's both come with All Seasons the 90D and 75D. Only the P90D gets summer performance tires on both wheel sizes.
The All Seasons on most early 22's have been the Pirelli Scorpion Zero (Asimmetrico?)
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Pirelli&tireModel=Scorpion+Zero
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Pirelli&tireModel=Scorpion+Zero+Asimmetrico
Cheers!
Tesla doesn't seem to post a range hit for the S, at least not in the configurator the way the X does.
Do they post it elsewhere or is it negligible enough to ignore.
goneskiian
Active Member
No but when you select the base 19" wheels in the configurator there's a note that says "Includes all season tires. Recommended for maximum range."
Then there is the "Range per charge" section of the Model S page that has a calculator that shows range hits across the board when toggling between 19" and 21" wheels.
We drove 1134 miles from Fremont back to Scottsdale and this was a mixture of mountain / coastal and Freeway highways. We averaged 372 Wh/mi on the journey.
My mother used to say --- "Don't cut off you nose to spite your face. I would have taken the car, determined if the mileage caused a Real World issue. Make a decision whether to change the wheels to after market. BTW, the mileage warning with 22" summer has been on the site for some time. It was there When I configured in December 2015. Increase the pressure in the tire by 2-3 pounds, may increase the range and not affect tire wear.
My guess is that if 5-6 miles is true on the S, then Tesla's notice of 10-15% or 39 miles for the X is in error. Following the explanation above about why ICE have better economy on the highway, then the loss with the bigger wheels should be less significant on the X since it has a bigger frontal surface and more weight than the S. In any case Tesla is making mistakes. The question is just where and how many.
K-MTG
Sunshade Captain of TMC
If tires make such a difference, I might as well install the tires on a toy RC car
Electricfan
Active Member
What do you normally charge your Model S to, such that you have 20 miles left when you reach your destination?
Could you simply increase the charge level on the X? If you were charging the S to 80%, charge the X to 90%?
Was the 10-15% figure available when you made your order?
Just seems like you could have solved the problem with a higher charge level and a 5mph slower speed. Slower speeds would increase your safety level as well.
Could you simply increase the charge level on the X? If you were charging the S to 80%, charge the X to 90%?
Was the 10-15% figure available when you made your order?
Just seems like you could have solved the problem with a higher charge level and a 5mph slower speed. Slower speeds would increase your safety level as well.
I believe that decreased range with 22" wheels is primarily due to higher air resistance caused by the increased width of the tires. The BMW i3 uses unusually narrow tires specifically for this reason. Since air resistance (for turbulent flow) is proportional to the square of velocity, range reduction will increase dramatically with higher speeds and probably explains why Tesla quotes such a broad spread for reduced range. The increase weight of the wheels will further reduce range and the increased rotational inertia will decrease acceleration.
I have to think that it's actually friction (from a greater surface area) not air resistance that BMW went with narrow tires. In University, we built a solar powered EV race car with 3 beefy bicycle wheels to minimize surface area as much as possible for this exact reason.
FWIW, I have 20" wheels on my X, and I can tell you the tires are very high performance. I have yet been able to break traction, even on wet roads intentionally cranking the steering wheel in a corner. Also, you get lower towing rating with 22".
