I live in a condo. The main breaker is only 70A. Now what? [Resolved]

[Watts_Up]

I'm in a similar situation, my main breaker for my condo is 80a.
My condo is on 2nd floor and all electrical is in garage (far from my parking space).
Based on my load calculations (66-75a) even a 15a will not work.
There does appear to be a spot for a new meter, although based on my power usage,
its cheaper for me to tie into my exisitng tiered meter.
My existing panel does not have an unused (with no wire) breaker.

I'm in a little bit in similar situation.
- My Electrical meter and my 60 A main breaker are located in my apartment garage.
- I live at the 2nd floor and my main panel is inside my apartment.
- My parking spot is 150 ft away from my main breaker.

What I did is the following, and it costs me about $200 of hardware:
- I installed a connection box just above my main breaker to add a connection going to my car.
- I put a dual 30 A tandem breaker next to the connection box.
- I made a 150 ft conduit from my 30 A breaker to my car location.
- I installed a NEMA 14-30 plug and a dual pole switch at the other end, next to my car.
- I use my own meter for both my apartment and my car and I subcribed to ToU starting at 12 pm.

I don't have A/C and I have a gas heater, so at night only the refrigirator is running.
The 240 V and 24 A nominal (5.7 kWh) provide about 25 miles per hour, so at 8 am I would have 200 miles.

I wonder how you estimate your 66 to 75 A consumption.
If you have two phases at 120 V each, this means you use 16 to 18 kwh.
I just think that you consider the worse case, where everything in your home is running at the same time.
There are many threads talking about this, but you have to look at your typical hourly usage to have a better estimate.

 

[andy92782]

I'm in a similar situation, my main breaker for my condo is 80a. My condo is on 2nd floor and all electrical is in garage (far from my parking space). Based on my load calculations (66-75a) even a 15a will not work. There does appear to be a spot for a new meter, although based on my power usage, its cheaper for me to tie into my exisitng tiered meter. My existing panel does not have an unused (with no wire) breaker.

I believe I have a few options but would like to know if I one option is better (or cheaper) than others before asking for quotes.
1. Use the DCC device installed downstairs in garage
2. Upgrade main breaker from 80a (to 100a+), have subpanel installed, and leave existing panel and wiring to condo alone. Install higher than 15a to EV.
3. Upgrade main breaker from 80a and have wiring to condo and panel upgraded, then have a breaker fed back down to garage. install higher than 15a to EV.
4. Try to get a 15 amp on existing line with no changes to wiring on panel.
5. have LADWP install a TOU meter in open spot.

any input would be appreciated.

You'll probably have to get a few quotes. Every municipality is different but 80A isn't much to begin with. My city would have never approved the permit without the DCC simply because my main breaker was under 100A. On top of this, you'll also have to find out what you can and can't get away with regarding your HOA. My guess is if you were to upgrade your main breaker and conduit feeding your panel you'll have to get the HOA involved, and the pain that will cause you is probably greater than the cost of the DCC.

 

[Bricepark]

Hey all,

New guy here. I take delivery of my Model 3 in about a week.

I live in an attached townhome. I have my own, private attached two car garage. I was gearing up to have a NEMA 14-50 outlet installed but unfortunately I discovered the main breaker feeding my unit is only 70A. Other than a central HVAC system (240V/30A for the compressor), all the appliances are gas and the remaining breakers are the usual assortment of 15A and 20A circuits for lights/plugs, garbage disposal, dishwasher, forced air unit, etc. What is the largest circuit that can be added to my unit's panel given the 70A maximum? 240V/30A? 240V/20A? Nothing at all? Am I screwed?

The main breaker is located on a shared panel on the exterior of the building. My own unit has its own sub-panel located in the garage just a few feed away from where I was hoping to have the 240V outlet installed. I'm assuming at this point it would take an act of God to upgrade the main breaker and/or panel plus rewire the unit to bring larger wire into my garage (HOA approvals, building codes, whatever...).

I'm in the process of getting quotes from electricians but trying to get an idea first...

Thanks!

I live in a condo with a communal 32 amp, 240 volt charger and have no problems. It takes about an hour and fifteen minutes to add 10% charge to my M3 dual motor LR. I charge to 85% and recharge at 60%. I use the car daily in heavy traffic and charge every two days on average. If I had a dedicated connection, I believe a 20 amp, 120 volt supply would be sufficient to keep the car charged, but that is because I am retired and the car would remain on charge anytime it is not in use.

 

[Miguel1]

I did two load calculations worksheets. One comes out at 66a and the other at 75a. 25a of that is the central AC which is bared used in LA. All appliances are gas. Sqft is 1180, dishwasher, gargage disposal, two bathroom fans, LG front load washer and gas dryer, microwave.

The board has already approved installation of chargers per the Davis-Sterling guidelines but I would be the first. As I'm on the board and it's already approved, the only requirement I have to worry about providing the license information of the electrician who will do the work. I wouldn't give any further details. There are already common conduits for lights at 120v outlets in the garage which cannot be used for charging. My line would parallel one of these routes.

1) I would like to avoid the cost of DCC so that is not my first choice.

2) There is an open meter spot, so I'm guessing the building isn't maxed. Is this a question for LADWP or an electrician?

3) I expect this to be more work and unneeded, but I've seenposts where some electricians prefer this method.

4) Ideally I'd get more than a 15a to support a second car in the future. If I go with this option, is there any downside (other than cost) to installing the wire and conduit for a more amperage to leave the option for an upgrade in the future? Would I be able to get anything more than 15a?

Where did you find the 66-75A? Maybe post a picture of your panel....

1) The DCC is a last resort, IMHO. Its expensive to buy and install, and then you need to worry about when one or the other device is gonna get shut off.

2) I wouldn't be so sure that you can just upgrade the main breaker like that.. the building might be near its limit. Also, you'd probably have to pass the 100+amp through the subpanel(with an 80 amp breaker sending much of the capacity up to your condo). I'd probably go this route.

3) This is much like 2, but you need some pretty hefty wire to get upstairs and back down. Don't forget the wire and breaker should be oversized by 25% from what you expect the continuous EV load to be(well, at least the line coming back down), the line going up should still be somewhat oversized because a non-trivial percentage of its load is expected to be continuous.

4) I'd be interested in why you think 15A is too much for your current panel. Unless you have an electric stove and AC and clothes dryer, I'd think your other loads would be manageable.

5) I don't know the costs involved in a new meter.

 

[andy92782]

OP here. You really need to talk to a few electricians, especially ones with experience installing chargers in your city. They'll be familiar with what is and isn't possible in terms of getting the job permitted.

 

[Cosmacelf]

I did two load calculations worksheets. One comes out at 66a and the other at 75a. 25a of that is the central AC which is bared used in LA. All appliances are gas. Sqft is 1180, dishwasher, gargage disposal, two bathroom fans, LG front load washer and gas dryer, microwave.

The board has already approved installation of chargers per the Davis-Sterling guidelines but I would be the first. As I'm on the board and it's already approved, the only requirement I have to worry about providing the license information of the electrician who will do the work. I wouldn't give any further details. There are already common conduits for lights at 120v outlets in the garage which cannot be used for charging. My line would parallel one of these routes.

1) I would like to avoid the cost of DCC so that is not my first choice.

2) There is an open meter spot, so I'm guessing the building isn't maxed. Is this a question for LADWP or an electrician?

3) I expect this to be more work and unneeded, but I've seenposts where some electricians prefer this method.

4) Ideally I'd get more than a 15a to support a second car in the future. If I go with this option, is there any downside (other than cost) to installing the wire and conduit for a more amperage to leave the option for an upgrade in the future? Would I be able to get anything more than 15a?

View attachment 458052

Looks like your only 240v breaker is the 30A one for the AC? If so, I’d say you have load capacity to install another 30A breaker for a 240v charger. But you don’t have panel capacity for it, all spots are taken. You’d need to install a new panel. But if you did that, you should be good.

 

[Sophias_dad]

Looks like your only 240v breaker is the 30A one for the AC? If so, I’d say you have load capacity to install another 30A breaker for a 240v charger. But you don’t have panel capacity for it, all spots are taken. You’d need to install a new panel. But if you did that, you should be good.

That's not how it works, sadly.... all those 120V loads are taking capacity from the 240V pair. I agree that unless some of those breakers are unused or several can be combined, its new-panel time. Probably cheaper, easier, and just generally better to put in a new panel near the meters and not mess with this one in any way.

 

[Cosmacelf]

That's not how it works, sadly.... all those 120V loads are taking capacity from the 240V pair. I agree that unless some of those breakers are unused or several can be combined, its new-panel time. Probably cheaper, easier, and just generally better to put in a new panel near the meters and not mess with this one in any way.

Yes I know, but he said he has an 80 A main breaker. 25A for the AC, 24A for the charger, that leaves 31A @240V for the misc. 15A and 20A breakers. That’s plenty.

The panel replacement, assuming you could physically do it (it kinda looks built into a concrete wall, which if so, makes it hard to do), doesn’t cost a lot. I just did one for a friend for less than $100 in parts and a couple hours of labor. Of course an electrician would charge you tons for that.

 

[RandyS]

Another benefit you'd get from doing a panel upgrade is that you'd be able to replace those older breakers that are in your current panel. Breakers don't last forever, and from a safety perspective, they look old enough that I'd be worried that one or more of them wouldn't trip during an overcurrent condition. Replacing older breakers is cheap insurance for safety...

 

[andy92782]

OP here resurrecting my thread again. Might be turning it off-topic but since I touched on this before, I'm starting to get serious about installing a new HVAC (furnace and condenser). This is primarily driven by a new home office situation that just developed between myself and my S.O. She's going to be working from home from now on so the air conditioner is going to see some real use come this summer. Time to ditch the 30-year old energy waster.

If you recall, I had an issue before with the high startup inrush current of the HVAC system tripping the DCC. I was able to get around this by installing a startup cap on the compressor. This worked....mostly.

I've gotten a few quotes on new HVAC installs and let's just say they're eye-opening. In round numbers, the cheapest, single-speed 14-seer system is about $6,200. I can upgrade that to a 2-speed compressor system for about $7,500-$8K. Or I can go all out and get a full blown 20-seer variable rate compressor/furnace for $9,500+. YIKES.

I was tempted to blow the money on the variable rate system for a couple reasons... They're A LOT quieter, and since they have electronic motor controls they don't suffer from the LRA/inrush current of single or dual-speed compressors, so I'd never have to worry about it tripping the DCC. The problem is, A) they're seriously expensive, and B) ALL of the variable rate systems, whether they be Carrier, Lennox, Trane, Bryant, whoever all use a proprietary communication system that forces the use of their specific thermostat. Let's just say that in addition to being an EV geek I'm also a home automation geek who chose the Apple Homekit ecosystem, and only Lennox's thermostat works with Homekit. And Lennox's 20-seer variable system is outrageously expensive ($12K).

(in case you're curious, a typical aftermarket smart thermostat like Nest or ecobee or Sensi or whoever can support at most a 2-stage HVAC - they won't work with true variable systems. well, they will, but they'll only operate them on either "low" or "high", negating the benefits of variable motors)

I'd be curious to know people's thoughts on this.

 

[brkaus]

I have carrier with the greenspeed. You're correct, the home geek stuff doesn't work with the thermostats. There is actually an older version stat (or secondary controller, don't remember) has RS232 connection but I don't recall what was programmed to support it... It was pretty lacking except in very high end (expensive) automation.

The variable speed systems will work on a normal thermostat. They just use their built in intelligence, typically based on time, to decide how hard to work. So, yes, it would be a waste to put in a high end system and skip the communcating thermostat..

Would I do the DC variable speed again? I'm not sure. I think it would be a huge win with a zoned system. Or for climate extremes. Otherwise a 2-speed is pretty OK.

In either case, I do think the newer systems will have a lower start current so you may not experience the DCC issue. Perhaps they have more specs on it.

Any home efficiency improvements you can make at the same time and perhaps reduce the heat/cooling load?

I have a variable speed system and two 2-stage systems.

 

[Bet TSLA]

I'd be curious to know people's thoughts on this.

My thought is that you should simplify things and just ditch the A/C. Get a whole house fan, maybe a simple heat pump of some sort. It's dry where you are, so full house A/C is pretty much pointless. I lived in a variety of places in and around Pasadena for fifteen years and never had A/C. It was an issue on maybe two or three days in a year, so not really a problem worth solving.

 

[Sophias_dad]

Don't discount the potential for a bigger(or existent) rebate from a variable system. When I chose a Carrier Greenspeed (AC/heat pump at 20-21 seer)) instead of base model (14 Seer), half the increased cost was directly offset by a rebate, and I use considerably less energy for cooling the house.

That said.... had it not been under warranty, in the ~7 years I've owned it, I would have spent at least three thousand on repairs. Even with me paying only labor, its been over a thousand.

 

[andy92782]

Don't discount the potential for a bigger(or existent) rebate from a variable system. When I chose a Carrier Greenspeed (AC/heat pump at 20-21 seer)) instead of base model (14 Seer), half the increased cost was directly offset by a rebate, and I use considerably less energy for cooling the house.

That said.... had it not been under warranty, in the ~7 years I've owned it, I would have spent at least three thousand on repairs. Even with me paying only labor, its been over a thousand.

Yikes....

I think I'm leaning towards a 2-stage system. Less stuff to break!

 

[brkaus]

Yikes....

I think I'm leaning towards a 2-stage system. Less stuff to break!

I'm not sure if it's more or less stuff to break. But it is definitely different stuff to break.

My AC-DC inverter went out in the 1st year. They replaced it for free, but said it would have been $3k if not under warranty. It's the only problem I've had with the outside unit, infant mortality?

My inside unit variable speed fan went out on one of the units too, It was $450 DIY. Quotes were around $1.5k. My variable speeds and dual speed units all have the same inside unit.

My dual speed units have both required new start capacitors. Otherwise, they have been running well.

 

[jfabula]

It's a 1300sf townhome in Orange County, CA, built in 1989.

No way I'm getting the HOA involved with this. In fact, they recently published a list of rules/guidelines for installing rooftop solar that's so draconian nobody in their right mind will ever attempt to install anything.

Update: One electrician who originally quoted me on a 14-50 now says a 14-30 outlet with a 30A breaker is do-able. According to Tesla, this is good for 22 miles of range per hour when using the UMC2 and 14-30 adapter. It should be more than sufficient for my daily driving needs. I'm just bummed I'm not able to max this out with something like a 40A JuiceBox running off a 14-50 (50A circuit).

It appears like yuore electrician can replace your 30 amp for A/C with quad 30 amps for nema 10-30....outlet just like for electric dryer....thats 22 miles per hour is good enough to give you some juice better than the 110 volts outlet...good luck

 

[Sophias_dad]

I think I'm leaning towards a 2-stage system. Less stuff to break!

All my problems were unrelated to the variability if I understand correctly... freon leaks and related work only. Entirely new fan coil et. al.

 

[Electric700]

Trane is pretty good. Some installers offer up to 10 years on both parts (which is a standard) + labor as well. Trane also has two stage systems, variable or single stage. The single stage systems may be rated at under 20 SEER though. Get one with the top on the outdoor unit, which helps to shield it from rain / debris.

Here's one option:
XV20i Heat Pump | NEW up to $400 Rebate Now | Trane®

For units that don't come with the top cover, you may be able to add it:
https://www.trane.com/residential/en/products/heat-pumps/weatherguard-top-accessory

 

[andy92782]

OP here again. Quick HVAC update now that the weather is warming up: I went with a Bryant Evolution (aka Carrier Infinity) variable rate system with a 19-SEER rating. The increased efficiency, compressor soft-start (no DCC tripping) and low noise were they key factors in my decision. Also, Bryant seemed to be a better overall value compared to Lennox and Trane. It's very efficient (duh): Actual consumption is less than half of what the EV charger uses, even though the outdoor unit is on a same-sized circuit (30A). SCE's website shows about ~2.5kWh whole-home consumption over a 1-hour period right after it's turned on (and is running at max output), and this falls once target temp is reached and the system drops down to a lower stage. Fairly impressive for a 3-ton capacity system.

 

[powaking]

Can't believe I read all 15 pages. What a journey and glad you stuck it out. I was going to mention that if there is something that actually supported by Homekit then to take a look at Homebridge. I have it currently running on a gen1 raspberry pi and have my Honeywell wifi thermostat, myQ garage door opener and Tesla all accessible via Homekit.

Otherwise congrats on your solution (and new AC unit).