If the M3 was an ICE vehicle how would it compare?

[Austindude]

Elon used to argue that the Model S was a luxury car that also happened to be an EV, so does the same line of thinking apply to the M3? Obviously everyone on this forum is at least partly interested in the Model 3 because it is an EV, but what if it was an ICE vehicle instead? Would the ICE M3 still be a compelling car for you?

To test this idea let's configure the base Model 3 with a color other than black, and then add 19" wheels, PUP, AP, and destination charge, which should make the price around $49,500. Now assume for the moment that the M3 is and ICE vehicle rather than an EV but has the same performance specs, curb appeal, trunk space, and interior volume and design as the current Model 3, how would it compare with BMW's, Mercedes, Lexus, Porsche, and others configured in the same way and at a similar price point?

 

[206er]

Hard to compare since the EV-ness of it is a huge part of what makes it what it is... tech, Elon, and the US manufacturing components make up most of the rest of Tesla. But if Tesla were an ICE manufacturer, I'd have to slot them below BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Lexus, and Infiniti based on quality issues alone. I have a neighbor who still complains about how the interior of his 2015 Model S isn't anywhere near as nice as the Mercedes he swapped out of for it.

 

[Esme Es Mejor]

If it were an ICE, people would be even more amazed. Zero engine noise? Magic! Zero engine vibration? Magic! Instant torque, 0-60 in under 5 seconds, and better mpg than a Prius? Magic!

If it were an ICE, it would have won Car of the Year.

 

[Ugliest1]

Well... I haven't even seen a Model 3 yet, no deliveries to Canada until "late 2018". However after 4 years of driving a Model S, here's my list of why an EV version of Model 3 would be WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY better than an ICE version:
- instant and full torque. Right now. Immediately. No .5- to 1-second delay as the engine and transmission dance around. This advantage cannot be over-emphasized.
- regenerative braking, otherwise known as "one-pedal driving". So much easier/better/quicker, and it puts energy back into the battery to boot
- no engine vibration. After a full day of driving on a trip, part of the tiredness (I'm convinced) is because of the tiny constant vibrations in an ICE.
- no heat sink into the feet on a long trip. No matter whether the air conditioning is on high, nearly all ICE's get very hot near the feet from the high engine heat through the firewall after a long day. Not so in an EV.
- fuel costs around 20-25% of ICE. Of course, if you're an early Tesla owner you've got free energy for all trips. In 2014, we travelled 17,000km on $47. The $47 was donated to RV parks on the way when we went away from superchargers.
- quiet. This (and lack of engine vibration) really helps on a long trip, although one can never get away from tire noise.
- fewer moving parts to break down. The car just runs and runs and runs; I expect no less from the Model 3. On your list of ICEs, you're looking at oil changes, spark plug changes, water pump failures, fan belt problems... However, in an EV they do require you to do some very onerous user maintenance: keep the windshield washer fluid topped up.
- low environmental impact; zero emissions, for those that care about that kind of thing. You know, "for the children".

[EDIT:] And I'll add one more thing, turning the argument that many ICE-ophiles constantly lament on its head: the "forced" two or three 20-40 minute supercharging stops in a day are also an advantage, especially as one ages, in significantly reducing driver fatigue on a long trip. We just don't feel like we've been driving all day. I'd rather be safer than bleat about needing only a 5-minute gas-up.

 

[run-the-joules]

The M3 is an ICE vehicle. The earliest versions were 4 cyl but have been 6 cyl for a while now.

Now if the Model 3 were an ICE vehicle, yes I'd still be considering it because Autopilot is the main reason I'm buying the car.

 

[Electroman]

If it were an ICE, it will be amazing and beyond belief that runs without ever visiting a gas station. It will be a miracle

 

[North75]

The M3 is an ICE vehicle. The earliest versions were 4 cyl but have been 6 cyl for a while now.

Now if the Model 3 were an ICE vehicle, yes I'd still be considering it because Autopilot is the main reason I'm buying the car.

Wasn’t there a V8 for a few years?
(I had an E36, loved it even though lots of people rag on the US version)

 

[run-the-joules]

Wasn’t there a V8 for a few years?
(I had an E36, loved it even though lots of people rag on the US version)

Yeah probably a V8 now or something. I'm a bit out of touch with the BMW world

 

[kaffine]

Well if it was an ICE I wouldn't be considering it at that price range. I wouldn't spend that kind of money on an ICE with the exception of if it had working FSD. I don't need a luxury car and while I like performance cars I don't buy them I go with fuel efficient cars that have low cabin noise and comfortable seats and basic cruise control. I might consider a $35k car that is ICE but would prefer to keep it under $30k. My options are fairly limited looking at ICE cars anymore as I still want a manual transmission unless it is FSD.

Now would the 3 compete with more expensive ICE cars if it was an ICE car itself I don't know I don't shop that market.

 

[insaneoctane]

Moving past all the wise cracks.... I don't think the model 3 would be very compelling for me without the EV drivetrain. But that is also in the car's DNA, so it's quite a difficult question to answer.

 

[ChadS]

Yeah, it is a very difficult question...if you remove the enabling technology that makes it a great product, is it still a great product? That is hard to answer definitively for any product.

The answer depends on whether you assume, as some have above (both seriously and tongue-in-cheek) the hypothetical old-tech variant would still have the attributes of the new tech.

 

[ninefiveone]

That statement about “luxury car that happens to be an EV” was never meant as “this car would be just as good with an ICE drivetrain”. Eg Build what others are building, just with an EV drivetrain.

It was meant as “this is Tesla’s vision of what a $100k car should be.” Eg Build what we want to build irrespective of th competition.

The reason a hybrid Mercedes S-class is underwhelmkmg is because of the “build what we always build and then try to insert some EV” approach. The Model S would be similarly underwhelming with an ICE drivetrain. An S63 Mercedes is a phenomenal machine and it’s just a shame that it uses gas. A P100D Model S is a phenomenal machine and it’s just a shame it has no door pockets.

You get the idea.

 

[Jayc]

I already own a Hybrid so ICE is a no go irrespective of how good it is - don't want to go backwards.

Actually, if you think about it, Model 3 proportions will not accommodate an ICE drivetrain so OP's question is not valid to start with. Can you imagine a steam powered BMW 3 series ? We may laugh at it now but for years traditional ICE car companies just didn't understand this simple fact and some still don't. This is why electrification of a mass market ICE design is a failed project even before it starts.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Kind of like asking how a Jet airliner would be compared to an earlier propeller driven airliner.

In an environmentally consious world, how could a person consider a personal vehicle that will consume and pollute the results of tens of thousands of gasoline over it's lifetime. Also need to consume and dispose of many gallons of motor oil, transmission oil etc.

How an enlightened individual could consider an ICE vehicle an alternative could not consider how their urban pollution causes the earlier sickness and death of so many hundreds of thousands of people.

Will be the same argument when the Tesla Truck hits the urban roads. Everyone will be glad to see those belching, stinking, slow, ill handling, loud and obnoxious diesels banned from our roads.

 

[run-the-joules]

Kind of like asking how a Jet airliner would be compared to an earlier propeller driven airliner.

In an environmentally consious world, how could a person consider a personal vehicle that will consume and pollute the results of tens of thousands of gasoline over it's lifetime. Also need to consume and dispose of many gallons of motor oil, transmission oil etc.

How an enlightened individual could consider an ICE vehicle an alternative could not consider how their urban pollution causes the earlier sickness and death of so many hundreds of thousands of people.

Will be the same argument when the Tesla Truck hits the urban roads. Everyone will be glad to see those belching, stinking, slow, ill handling, loud and obnoxious diesels banned from our roads.

This may come as a surprise to you, but plenty of us that are interested in Teslas aren't buying them for environmental reasons. It's not even on my top 10 list. Sure, it's nice that they pollute less, but it's an ancillary benefit for me.

 

[daniel]

If it were an ICE, people would be even more amazed. Zero engine noise? Magic! Zero engine vibration? Magic! Instant torque, 0-60 in under 5 seconds, and better mpg than a Prius? Magic!

If it were an ICE, it would have won Car of the Year.

If the Model 3 were an ICE vehicle it would not have any of those attributes. It's quiet because it has no ICE. It has no vibration because it has no ICE. It does zero to 60 in 5.1 seconds because it has an electric drive train. It uses less energy than a Prius because it has an electric drive train.

If the Model 3 were an ICE car its performance would depend on what ICE it had. Does it have a Corolla ICE, or a Mustang ICE? But it would have all the drawbacks of an ICE and the gas mileage of its ICE. It would just be an odd, minimalist-design car, nice looking but otherwise unremarkable.

I would have no interest whatsoever! I bought my Roadster because I wanted an electric car and it was the only electric car I could get at the time. Now the Model 3 will replace it because it will be a safer, though a less interesting electric car. I like Tesla because Tesla does not make ICE cars. Gasoline stinks and is destroying the climate. I like the Model 3 because it does not use gasoline.

Now you could design a car from the ground up as a gasoline car with the same appearance and size and the same level of luxury and user-facing features, and it would cost less than a Model 3 because, unfortunately, batteries are still very expensive. But what you get with a Model 3 are all the advantage that those expensive batteries and the accompanying electric motor provide, and those are what make the Model 3 what it is.

 

[calisnow]

Elon used to argue that the Model S was a luxury car that also happened to be an EV, so does the same line of thinking apply to the M3? Obviously everyone on this forum is at least partly interested in the Model 3 because it is an EV, but what if it was an ICE vehicle instead? Would the ICE M3 still be a compelling car for you?

To test this idea let's configure the base Model 3 with a color other than black, and then add 19" wheels, PUP, AP, and destination charge, which should make the price around $49,500. Now assume for the moment that the M3 is and ICE vehicle rather than an EV but has the same performance specs, curb appeal, trunk space, and interior volume and design as the current Model 3, how would it compare with BMW's, Mercedes, Lexus, Porsche, and others configured in the same way and at a similar price point?

The comparison makes no sense. It wouldn't be the same car as an ICE. It wouldn't handle the same, have the same throttle response, cost the same to operate, look the same (different packaging to accommodate engine and transmission tunnel). And the biggest luxury is autopilot (when you own an autopilot car you will understand what luxury actually is).

Half the "luxury" junk inside a luxury ICE is to hell you forget the car is noisy sluggish and must be refueled and maintained at great cost.

 

[calisnow]

The other thing is that it has become painfully clear that the Model 3 demographic is not the same as Model S. So many posters on the 3 forum are "option box checkers." Alas - they will never understand...

 

[Snerruc]

When I buy a “luxury” car I always buy a zero option car. I don’t like the garbage they add. Tesla’s are more like Apple designs simple relatively elegant creations. Personally I would buy the Model 3 for the dash alone. Simple, elegant much like an iPhone. It’s dash is the furure just like the first iPhone. Much of the complaints about it I read sound like what was said about the first iPhone I suspect the results will be the same.

 

[run-the-joules]

The other thing is that it has become painfully clear that the Model 3 demographic is not the same as Model S. So many posters on the 3 forum are "option box checkers." Alas - they will never understand...

I’m not really sure what this is supposed to mean.