Improving Supercharger Availability $0.40 idle fee

[dgpcolorado]

...All of this will go away in a few years (or decades) when SuperChargers are completely robotic.

Or when Supercharger Stations are as ubiquitous as gas stations are now, if that ever happens.

 

[Ulmo]

Or when Supercharger Stations are as ubiquitous as gas stations are now, if that ever happens.

Yes. One unqualified thought I had yesterday was a third party putting a single (or dual) SuperCharger at every street intersection. It wouldn't matter if the site was "full"; you'd just drive another block. Implementation would be done as a point that spreads out; in the within-the-circle region where every street corner has a SuperCharger, you would never have to figure out how far away the next SuperCharger is; you'd just have to SuperCharge before leaving the 100% coverage region.

Then I went to bed without running any cost numbers or figuring out cases of impaction. I somehow doubt the issue of clogged SuperChargers will go away any time soon. But, we can look forward to many decades from now when plasma conduits of energy self-form in the sky direct to our car to supply it. (Robot plasmas.)

 

[tga]

But, we can look forward to many decades from now when plasma conduits of energy self-form in the sky direct to our car to supply it. (Robot plasmas.)

"Bartender, I'll have what he's having!"

 

[brkaus]

Yes. One unqualified thought I had yesterday was a third party putting a single (or dual) SuperCharger at every street intersection. It wouldn't matter if the site was "full"; you'd just drive another block. Implementation would be done as a point that spreads out; in the within-the-circle region where every street corner has a SuperCharger, you would never have to figure out how far away the next SuperCharger is; you'd just have to SuperCharge before leaving the 100% coverage region.

Exactly. I'm thinking a national chain (McDonalds, Albertsons, etc) could put a single (or double) supercharger at each of their locations. Charge a nominal fee for charging and get increased business.

 

[Model 3]

I'm thinking a national chain (McDonalds, Albertsons, etc) could put a single (or double) supercharger at each of their locations.

Sorry, no room for a supercharger here, the place is filled with ChaDemo/CCS and AC charging....

 

[brkaus]

Sorry, no room for a supercharger here, the place is filled with ChaDemo/CCS and AC charging....

Nice. If they took a nationwide approach...

 

[Model 3]

Nice. If they took a nationwide approach...

That picture is from Sweden, but there are a lot of McDonalds here in Norway that has one or more "dual chargers" like that with CCS/ChaDemo/Ac-charging. But I do not think they ALL have it - yet.

But the real point is that they will not install "superchargers" for Teslas, they will install chargers for as many different EV's as possible. At one point they will undoubtedly remove the ChaDemo part as CCS is the standard. That is why I have hopes that the Model 3 - at least here in Europe - will get a CCS charging port.

 

[brkaus]

That picture is from Sweden, but there are a lot of McDonalds here in Norway that has one or more "dual chargers" like that with CCS/ChaDemo/Ac-charging. But I do not think they ALL have it - yet.

But the real point is that they will not install "superchargers" for Teslas, they will install chargers for as many different EV's as possible. At one point they will undoubtedly remove the ChaDemo part as CCS is the standard. That is why I have hopes that the Model 3 - at least here in Europe - will get a CCS charging port.

Thanks for the clarification!

Agree it isn't necessary to be a supercharger. But a large scale deployment of fast charge infrastructure at a nationwide/worldwide chain would be fantastic!

 

[AnxietyRanger]

• July 6: Charging from 6:05PM to 6:33PM, Complete from 6:34PM to 6:41PM (8 minutes (I was charged for 6 minutes)), Disconnected from 6:42PM.

• July 3: Charging from 7:19PM to 7:40PM, Complete from 7:41PM to 7:55PM (15 minutes (I was charged for 12 minutes)), Disconnected from 7:57PM. (7:56PM had no data.)

• February 19: Charging from 12:37PM to 1:04PM, Complete from 1:05PM to 1:12PM (8 minutes (I was charged $0 per minute idle fee for 8 minutes)), Disconnected from 1:13PM.

I believe I wrote about the Fresno incident: I was at Target in line to pay for items, and I got the notice that the charge was finished while in line to pay. By the time I walked to the car, it said it had started accruing fees.

For the first Seaside incident, I was trying to rent a car when the service center didn't have a loaner available for the annual service, and I was walking back from the rental place when it didn't work out. That accounted for $4.80.

For the second Seaside incident, the car was still charging when I went to the lounge to use the bathroom, and after the bathroom, I immediately returned to the car to unplug it since it reported that it was finished. That accounted for $2.40. (I always wash my hands thoroughly, and if this causes me to get more idle fee, then that's what will happen, since I'm not going to reduce my cleaning.)

Considering the fact that Tesla is charging apparently even for shorter periods than the mentioned 5 minutes from completion, this indeed seems like a very strict system that one can not really plan for, other than by remaining in the car or very close to it watching the app.

Did you fail to plan for the completion, i.e. did the completion come to you as a surprise or did you just risk it?

 

[mspohr]

Considering the fact that Tesla is charging apparently even for shorter periods than the mentioned 5 minutes from completion, this indeed seems like a very strict system that one can not really plan for, other than by remaining in the car or very close to it watching the app.

Did you fail to plan for the completion, i.e. did the completion come to you as a surprise or did you just risk it?

I always get a "Charging almost complete" notice well before the end of charging which gives me plenty of time to get back to the car.
I also always set the charge limit to 100% when I Supercharge even when I don't anticipate needing that much charge. This gives me lots of time to get back to the car since the end taper of 100% charging is very slow.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I always get a "Charging almost complete" notice well before the end of charging which gives me plenty of time to get back to the car.

The notifications are quite unreliable, not to mention not everyone uses the app. I have made the point that Tesla should offer SMS notifications as an improvement idea, that would help somewhat. The biggest problem is the sheer unpredictability of the charging process combined with a very strict deadline. Were the grace period 15 or 30 minutes, this would be much less of an issue.

It is hard to see any other way to plan for it, as things stand, other than remaining near the car and watching the app - or remaining in the car. If the notifications work (and you notice them), they will help with not having to watch the app, but still not really about not having to remain very close by. There are enough of reports of charge speed changes surprising people (e.g. stall sharing events, charger condition etc.).

I also always set the charge limit to 100% when I Supercharge even when I don't anticipate needing that much charge. This gives me lots of time to get back to the car since the end taper of 100% charging is very slow.

Yes, this can help a bit. I just keep wondering, given that people will resort to the 100% trick which is doing nobody any favors (queues and Tesla's battery warranties included), wouldn't a bit more predictable and less brutal system be wise. Is it really the end-result Tesla or Tesla owners are looking for is that more and more people start charging to 100%? Instead of being a bit more flexible about the return time, given the inherent imprecision of the completion time...

Charging the charges on credit card and showing them real-time is of course an improvement on the first system that kept you in the dark. Still, it will be interesting how these idle charges go down with average people as they stand. They do seem very unpredictable and hard to avoid even for reasonable average people and that really shouldn't be their nature IMO.

I guess my point is this: Is @Ulmo really the bad guy that this policy is meant to deter? Or is there some bigger and more important fish to fry that should be better targeted?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I can not believe I am getting disagrees for pointing out that this policy is encouraging 100% charging that adds more to queues than adjusting the grace period to be more reasonable.

E.g. @KJD disagreed with me, but liked this:

I also always set the charge limit to 100% when I Supercharge even when I don't anticipate needing that much charge.

Somehow my suggestion of making the grace more predictable is worse than a policy that evidently encourages vastly prolonged charging to 100%, which is more hurtful to qeueus and batteries than an adjustment of the grace...

 

[mspohr]

I can not believe I am getting disagrees for pointing out that this policy is encouraging 100% charging that adds more to queues than adjusting the grace period to be more reasonable.

E.g. @KJD disagreed with me, but liked this:



Somehow my suggestion of making the grace more predictable is worse than a policy that evidently encourages vastly prolonged charging to 100%, which is more hurtful to qeueus and batteries than an adjustment of the grace...

I think the point of the idle fee is to make people aware that their car is taking up a spot and they should charge and move on.
People who go off and forget about the car are the problem.
Whenever I Supercharge, I am traveling and don't want to spend more time than necessary so I monitor charging with the app and watch for notifications. I'll leave when I get the number of miles I need. (For instance, I frequently charge at Rocklin or Roseville before returning home over Donner Summit. I know I need 200 miles range to get home... a little more in Winter. I'll watch the car or the app and leave when it's 200 miles.)
Even when I have it set to 100%, I rarely hang around to charge to 100%. That's just insurance to make sure I don't incur idle fees. Even if it does go to 100%, I'm not worried about charging to 100% since I always get in the car and drive it immediately. (Actually, now that I think about it, I don't think I've ever Supercharged to 100% since I unplug and go as soon as I have what I need.)

The point is you need to pay attention to the charging. Don't just plug it in and wander off and forget about it. The idle fees are there to encourage people to be mindful when they are charging.

 

[Uncle Paul]

An offset to the charging shortage would be if they simply placed a standard 110V plug (or even better 220v) at every urban and suburban light pole. When I lived in Detroit, there were lots of them, so you could plug in your engine heaters when you shopped. Would inexpensively allow slow (but steady) charging at most every stop. Should be able to get enough charge, if it is available at so many thousands of places. While you might only get a small amount of miles, having them everywhere might take a load off the higher speed chargers.

Have lunch, get a charge.
Shop, get a charge.
Get a haircut, get a charge.
Walk the dog, get a charge.
Spend time with girlfriend, get a charge!
You get the idea.

 

[mspohr]

An offset to the charging shortage would be if they simply placed a standard 110V plug (or even better 220v) at every urban and suburban light pole. When I lived in Detroit, there were lots of them, so you could plug in your engine heaters when you shopped. Would inexpensively allow slow (but steady) charging at most every stop. Should be able to get enough charge, if it is available at so many thousands of places. While you might only get a small amount of miles, having them everywhere might take a load off the higher speed chargers.

Have lunch, get a charge.
Shop, get a charge.
Get a haircut, get a charge.
Walk the dog, get a charge.
Spend time with girlfriend, get a charge!
You get the idea.

A recent episode of Fully Charged featured a company which is installing charge points on lamp posts in Europe (and the UK). Inexpensive since they use existing wiring. They install a module which incorporates billing and controls charging.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I think the point of the idle fee is to make people aware that their car is taking up a spot and they should charge and move on.
People who go off and forget about the car are the problem.

The point is you need to pay attention to the charging. Don't just plug it in and wander off and forget about it. The idle fees are there to encourage people to be mindful when they are charging.

I have never disagreed with the existence of idle fees, so you are not really responding to my point. I have been disagreeing with the haphazard way the policy has been implemented. For example, I am perfectly fine idle feeing overnight parkers etc. I just think the policy needs to be one people can grasp easily and avoid with reasonable diligence.

If the problem is awareness, let alone people who just forget about their cars, then addressing that would not require a 5 minute grace from an unpredictable ending time - let alone allowing it to be dependent on the selected charge rate, where a 100% rate will extend the avoidance of idle fees by much more (much, much more) than 5 minutes, while being anything but mindful about your fellow chargers, while punishing the guy who used an appropriate percentage (saving energy and battery) but just estimated their return wrong...

The thing is, IMO any punitive policy should be geared at attacking the real problem and implemented in a manner that a reasonable, well-behaving person can reasonably avoid. To me the fact that @Ulmo was getting idle charges for events in the 8-15 minute delay range (a time below what a 100% charge would add...) suggests maybe this is casting too wide a net.

Had the grace been 15 minutes instead of around 5 minutes (a much more reasonable grace IMO for an ending time that can alter by many tens of minutes), @Ulmo would not have received idle charges and that policy could still have encouraged returns sooner than setting to 100%... Given the unpredictability of the charge end, I would prefer even a 30 minute grace as a reasonable time, but would be OK with, say, $1/min after that.

 

[mspohr]

I have never disagreed with the existence of idle fees, so you are not really responding to my point. I have been disagreeing with the haphazard way the policy has been implemented. For example, I am perfectly fine idle feeing overnight parkers etc. I just think the policy needs to be one people can grasp easily and avoid with reasonable diligence.

If the problem is awareness, let alone people who just forget about their cars, then addressing that would not require a 5 minute grace from an unpredictable ending time - let alone allowing it to be dependent on the selected charge rate, where a 100% rate will extend the avoidance of idle fees by much more (much, much more) than 5 minutes, while being anything but mindful about your fellow chargers, while punishing the guy who used an appropriate percentage (saving energy and battery) but just estimated their return wrong...

The thing is, IMO any punitive policy should be geared at attacking the real problem and implemented in a manner that a reasonable, well-behaving person can reasonably avoid. To me the fact that @Ulmo was getting idle charges for events in the 8-15 minute delay range (a time below what a 100% charge would add...) suggests maybe this is casting too wide a net.

Had the grace been 15 minutes instead of around 5 minutes (a much more reasonable grace IMO for an ending time that can alter by many tens of minutes), @Ulmo would not have received idle charges and that policy could still have encouraged returns sooner than setting to 100%... Given the unpredictability of the charge end, I would prefer even a 30 minute grace as a reasonable time, but would be OK with, say, $1/min after that.

If I'm sitting in line waiting for a charge station, I wouldn't be happy with a 30 minute grace period.
My point is that charging is not parking and people shouldn't just plug in a walk away and forget about the car. They need to monitor the car in person or from the app and unplug when it's done.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

If I'm sitting in line waiting for a charge station, I wouldn't be happy with a 30 minute grace period.
My point is that charging is not parking and people shouldn't just plug in a walk away and forget about the car. They need to monitor the car in person or from the app and unplug when it's done.

Yet you are perfectly fine with bumping charge to 100% and adding ~30 minutes to the charge even when you don't need it... Somehow that is better than the guy who charged less (to benefit of all) and just got his return time a bit wrong. Go figure.

My point is: It is not parking that a certain period of time an EV stays at the charger after completion. It is a normal part of the nature of the process, given how long the charging takes and how much the charge time may unpredictably differ (e.g. depending on stall sharing, charger condition, taper algorithms). Having a reasonable grace period is normal, not parking. Asking for them to monitor may be reasonable, however even in that case a reasonable grace seems warranted so that only reasonable care is needed, not unreasonable monitoring.

Tesla has settled on a 5 minute grace. I don't think that's sufficient and I don't even think you think it is, because you choose to bypass it by charging to 100% even when you don't need to. A better solution, really, would be to have a more reasonable grace period and avoid punishing normal, reasonably diligent users or making them resort to workarounds such as 100% charging which hurts the queue just as much or more (and has other negative side effects beyond that as well).

As said, IMO even a 15 minute grace would already be a major improvement over the current situation.

 

[hill]

Sorry, no room for a supercharger here, the place is filled with ChaDemo/CCS and AC charging....

As long as i got my adapter in the back trunk? we're good to go.

.

 

[Tony8489]

Whenever I Supercharge, I am traveling and don't want to spend more time than necessary so I monitor charging with the app and watch for notifications. I'll leave when I get the number of miles I need. (For instance, I frequently charge at Rocklin or Roseville before returning home over Donner Summit. I know I need 200 miles range to get home... a little more in Winter. I'll watch the car or the app and leave when it's 200 miles.)
Even when I have it set to 100%, I rarely hang around to charge to 100%. That's just insurance to make sure I don't incur idle fees. Even if it does go to 100%, I'm not worried about charging to 100% since I always get in the car and drive it immediately. (Actually, now that I think about it, I don't think I've ever Supercharged to 100% since I unplug and go as soon as I have what I need.)

This is exactly how my travel goes. Sometime when I stop for dinner, I will get more charge that I need to get to the next destination. Obviously I will take that extra charge as it may shorten the next stop or leave me with extra when I get home. Therefore the limit is routinely set to 100% when traveling.

I have twice left the car at a charger for an extended period beyond when it was fully charged to 100%. Most recently this was at Mammoth July 5 when we were mountain biking after skiing as the supercharger is walking distance from Footloose where we rented the bikes.
1) We need a 100% charge to make it to Mojave nonstop where we prefer to have dinner.
2) I was July 5 after the holiday so there was practically no chance the 8 stalls at Mammoth would get close to half full to incur idle fees. If I had guessed wrong and ended up paying an hour of idle fees, I'd take my lumps and pay them without complaint.

The infamous Burbank charger is 3 miles from my home. I have used it very occasionally late at night. If I do that I set the limit at 90%, watch the app closely and retrieve the car before it gets to 90%. One of the virtues of the dinner charging in Mojave is that we get home with the car half charged, so it's not worth the bother of using Burbank even if it's available.