Infinite Mile Battery Warranty [Now] Being Honored By Tesla [Issue Resolved]

[2012MS85]

What I’m most perplexed by is Tesla’s new, much higher price for a replacement battery pack. Back in 2013 (before technology advances and today’s ever increasing mass battery production with improving economies of scale), Tesla gave the following prices for replacement packs: $12,000 for 85 kWh or $10,000 for 60 kWh. Is it now double ($25,000 MSRP) because it’s larger (90 kWh) or improved somehow? Very curious what warranty comes with that $25k investment? And is it new, or re-manufactured? Lots of used S owners (myself included) are going to want to know these answers as our largest component falls out of warranty (next year for my 2012 battery). $25k is Tesla’s trade-in value for most 2012 Model S cars in average condition, so it makes little economic sense to buy one replacement part (albeit a really vital one) that costs the same as the value of the whole car. I sincerely appreciate OP sharing this info and cost data, as it does affect the entire Tesla owners community. Good luck to OP in finding a fair resolution.

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

Holy F'n CAPS LOCK batman. I couldn't get past the first page.

If someone wants to transfer it to normal text, I could actually read it... I am interested in this story.

 

[HMARTINPT]

I don't disagree with that. Isn't that why the car is at the service center?

What I take issue with is the title of this thread. No evidence has been presented that Tesla is not honoring their warranty.

Tesla has already had articles published that stated the battery was replaced “under warranty” for the exact two complaints that I have been stating. (Rapid loss of battery capacity and range indicator malfunction). I will reiterate that Tesla has already told me that they will not cover the batter under warranty. Once again I am just trying to let other Tesla owners what I am going through. It seems logical that people would want to know that.

 

[MP3Mike]

f the BMS is constantly trying to keep voltages even, then it would be draining that module while the pack was discharging, then draining all others during recharge to achieve balance (a waste of power). However, if the system (programmers) were smart enough to only care about the full SOC balance point (maximum available energy), all that would happen is that the new module would have a higher voltage than the others when below 100% SOC. Since the system cuts power based on the lowest brick voltage, having one module higher wouldn't impact range.

I really don't think it is that easy, it will get further out of balance with every charge. And the balancing only kicks in when you charge to 93% or higher. So if you charge to 90% daily it will just keep getting further and further out of balance.
​

During the rebuild, it would be trivial to charge all 16 modules to their 100% SOC voltage, so the BMS would not need to do any balancing. Especially if it records the voltages at various SOCs for future reference.

Sure, that eliminates the first balance that the BMS would have to do, but if each module has a different capacity it will get out of balance with every charge cycle. (Unless you charge to 93%+ percent every time.)

 

[MP3Mike]

Back in 2013 (before technology advances and today’s ever increasing mass battery production with improving economies of scale), Tesla gave the following prices for replacement packs: $12,000 for 85 kWh or $10,000 for 60 kWh. Is it now double ($25,000 MSRP) because it’s larger (90 kWh) or improved somehow? Very curious what warranty comes with that $25k investment?

According to the warranty page 4 years/50k miles.

 

[MP3Mike]

Tesla has already had articles published that stated the battery was replaced “under warranty” for the exact two complaints that I have been stating. (Rapid loss of battery capacity and range indicator malfunction).

I haven't seen you provide anything to show the rapid loss of battery capacity. What is the change over what period of time?

 

[HMARTINPT]

I haven't seen you provide anything to show the rapid loss of battery capacity. What is the change over what period of time?

The car was suppose to get 171 miles with the energy consumption/driving pattern done. It shut down at 139 miles. In addition I made this same trip 3 months earlier and was able to drive 175 miles with the same driving conditions with about 10 miles left on the battery.

 

[mongo]

I really don't think it is that easy, it will get further out of balance with every charge. And the balancing only kicks in when you charge to 93% or higher. So if you charge to 90% daily it will just keep getting further and further out of balance.
​

Sure, that eliminates the first balance that the BMS would have to do, but if each module has a different capacity it will get out of balance with every charge cycle. (Unless you charge to 93%+ percent every time.)

It won't though, (other than the inherent difference in internal leakage and some charing loss). Each module only knows about current in and current out. The BMS limits the min and max voltage. A different capacity just changes the amount of voltage swing you get for a given Ah change.
Extreme numbers for illustration:
Two modules, one 10 Ah, one 20 Ah both at 4.2 V to start, with a 3.2 V floor and linear transfer function.
You pull out 5Ah, new voltages 3.7V (50% SOC) and 3.95 (75% SOC)
Pull another 5Ah: 3.2V (0% SOC) and 3.7 (50% SOC). So BMS shuts off pack.
Put 10 Ah pack in and you are at 4.2 and 4.2 again.
As long as the BMS only tries to balance at one specific SOC (in this case, the 20Ah module would be better off if they matched at a lower %), then it doesn't need to do any extra work.

 

[fabionomaz]

Thanks for your input. I was just curious how many miles you had on your car when they replaced the battery.

2015 70D with 70k miles, less than 4% rated range lost and no issues using the last few miles. Issue was only if I used a supercharger from a low SOC, I was surprised they swapped it just to fix that but idk their process.

 

[vickh]

If I were the OP I would drive it every day normally, and almost all the way down. Understanding that I may have to call Tesla because the car shut off at 16 miles left. Force them to address the issue of it shutting down prior to Zero. The 85 battery packs have issues because of several factors but pulling 400 VDC from it is one of them. They really should have did the 85 pack with 350 VDC that would have lowered the C rating of it some. All the indications that the OP has written here makes it look like the pack will die before 8 years.

is that a problem only on certain model year 85 battery packs? not on the 70 etc?

 

[StealthP3D]

Tesla has already had articles published that stated the battery was replaced “under warranty” for the exact two complaints that I have been stating. (Rapid loss of battery capacity and range indicator malfunction). I will reiterate that Tesla has already told me that they will not cover the batter under warranty. Once again I am just trying to let other Tesla owners what I am going through.

With regard to the title of this thread:

You don't seem to realize there is a difference between:

1) Tesla not covering something under the Warranty and,
2) The warranty not being honored by Tesla.

There is a huge difference between the two and yet you choose #2 for your thread title. I don't think it's honest or fair considering the information you have laid out here.

 

[Electric700]

Maybe it's this?

Then, just as the car hit 200,000 miles, the range estimator became inaccurate. Though the car didn’t actually lose any range, the estimator would say it could go another ten miles—and then power down.

Tesla looked into the issue, and told Tesloop that there’s a battery chemistry state that high-mileage cars go into, and the software isn’t properly compensating for that change. There will be a firmware update in three months that will take care of the discrepancy, but Tesla just replaced the battery to solve the problem.
...

This looks like at least part of the solution to the OP's issue. 21% degradation does seem high, which is why I wonder if there's a problem with one or more of the battery's modules. Also, Teslas use liquid cooling for the batteries, so they should be able to stay cool even during the Texas summers.

 

[swegman]

Tesla has already had articles published that stated the battery was replaced “under warranty” for the exact two complaints that I have been stating. (Rapid loss of battery capacity and range indicator malfunction).

I am confused. You previously indicated that the 100% charge range decreased gradually from (approximately) 265 miles range (when the car was new) to a currently indicated 209 mile range, this degradation occurring after driving for many years and over 230K miles. You also acknowledged that the Tesla warranty offers no coverage for such degradation.

Please clarify for me what you mean by your claim that your battery experienced a “rapid loss of battery capacity”, including when it occurred. Do you mean that the car indicated the battery had an indicated 209 mile range on the day you went on the trip but you were only able to drive 139 miles before the car stopped? Or are you referring to something else?

You indicated that the (actual) energy usage on your trip was approximately 360 Wh/mile. As noted by several people above, that energy usage is above the 295 Wh/mile figure the car uses to calculate the estimated driving range, and thus your driving “style” on that trip resulted in a higher rate of battery consumption (ie, actual driving distance will be less than what the car indicator showed when you began your trip). This is normal.

When I charge my car to 100%, the car may say I have an estimated driving range of 265 miles at the start of the trip. If I drive at 55 mph (consuming 295 Wh/mile), I can actually drive very close to the estimated range (within a few miles). On the other hand, if I drive 90mph, the actual driving range I get is only around 200-210 miles (because my actual energy usage may be around 360 Wh/mile), and if there is a headwind the actual driving range can be as little as 180 miles (when my actual energy usage is 400+ Wh/mile). Rain, snow, cold temperatures also effect the actual range of the battery. None of this is due to a “rapid loss of battery” but the fact that driving faster (or driving into the wind) uses more “juice” from the battery,

So I don’t understand what you mean by the battery having a “rapid loss of battery capacity” and when said rapid loss occurred, and respectfully request clarification.

I do agree that something is not right that the car indicated you had 16 miles of range left when the car stopped. I would be upset if that happened to me too, as I’ve had several incidents where I have gotten to my destination with less than an indicated 5 miles of range. But my car has always told me to slow down in such situations and I have followed said instructions, once having to drive 45 mph on a 70 mph road. I’ve even called Tesla in such situations so they could monitor my instantaneous energy usage to advise what if anything I needed to do to ensure I reach the destination.

 

[N..8]

I believe that his pack is getting towards the end of it's ability to keep the different cell packs from voltage droop. I think since he was using his pack in the 360 range it caused some of the weaker cell packs to droop the voltage. Then when it got around the 3.12v per cell some of the cells were lower and caused shut down even though total pack voltage would calculate out to the 16 miles left.

 

[techmaven]

I believe that his pack is getting towards the end of it's ability to keep the different cell packs from voltage droop. I think since he was using his pack in the 360 range it caused some of the weaker cell packs to droop the voltage. Then when it got around the 3.12v per cell some of the cells were lower and caused shut down even though total pack voltage would calculate out to the 16 miles left.

This is the part that he should get Tesla to respond to... and maybe get his pack replaced under this part.

On a different note, just because a particular service advisor doesn't know off hand how to get a 85 kWh pack doesn't mean they don't have 85 kWh packs available for warranty replacement. And if they don't, they'll need to put in a bigger battery.

 

[HMARTINPT]

I am confused. You previously indicated that the 100% charge range decreased gradually from (approximately) 265 miles range (when the car was new) to a currently indicated 209 mile range, this degradation occurring after driving for many years and over 230K miles. You also acknowledged that the Tesla warranty offers no coverage for such degradation.

Please clarify for me what you mean by your claim that your battery experienced a “rapid loss of battery capacity”, including when it occurred. Do you mean that the car indicated the battery had an indicated 209 mile range on the day you went on the trip but you were only able to drive 139 miles before the car stopped? Or are you referring to something else?

You indicated that the (actual) energy usage on your trip was approximately 360 Wh/mile. As noted by several people above, that energy usage is above the 295 Wh/mile figure the car uses to calculate the estimated driving range, and thus your driving “style” on that trip resulted in a higher rate of battery consumption (ie, actual driving distance will be less than what the car indicator showed when you began your trip). This is normal.

When I charge my car to 100%, the car may say I have an estimated driving range of 265 miles at the start of the trip. If I drive at 55 mph (consuming 295 Wh/mile), I can actually drive very close to the estimated range (within a few miles). On the other hand, if I drive 90mph, the actual driving range I get is only around 200-210 miles (because my actual energy usage may be around 360 Wh/mile), and if there is a headwind the actual driving range can be as little as 180 miles (when my actual energy usage is 400+ Wh/mile). Rain, snow, cold temperatures also effect the actual range of the battery. None of this is due to a “rapid loss of battery” but the fact that driving faster (or driving into the wind) uses more “juice” from the battery,

So I don’t understand what you mean by the battery having a “rapid loss of battery capacity” and when said rapid loss occurred, and respectfully request clarification.

I do agree that something is not right that the car indicated you had 16 miles of range left when the car stopped. I would be upset if that happened to me too, as I’ve had several incidents where I have gotten to my destination with less than an indicated 5 miles of range. But my car has always told me to slow down in such situations and I have followed said instructions, once having to drive 45 mph on a 70 mph road. I’ve even called Tesla in such situations so they could monitor my instantaneous energy usage to advise what if anything I needed to do to ensure I reach the destination.

The car was suppose to get 171 miles with the energy consumption/driving pattern done according to previous calculations in this thread. It shut down at 139 miles. The capacity dropped towards the end of trip and included shutting down with 16 miles left on the range indicator. In addition I made this same trip 3 months earlier and was able to drive 175 miles with the same driving conditions with about 10 miles left on the battery. Yes I did receive messages from the car and slowed down accordingly. I wasn’t driving 90 either. We kept at the speed limit of 75mph until the warnings and then had to endure going 55mph while being honked at by other vehicles(some people in Texas get a real kick out of seeing Tesla’s broke down on the side of the road and when we aren’t able to drive the speed limit on the highways). Both trips had the same driving conditions(ie weather, hills, wind). I hope this helps. I appreciate your input.

 

[N..8]

Hmartinpt, Don't focus on how many miles you think you were suppose to get. You were driving at 360 rather than 295 so it doesn't really matter. The important part is that the car shut down at 16 miles left. The other part of range has too many factors; wind, temp, driving style, heater, tire size, hills, no hills, traffic, cargo, etc. If you notice all of us on here are saying the same thing, the car should not have stopped at 16 miles. If I take your car and drive it like a hyper mile style behind a semi I can get way more than 209 miles of range but if the car still shuts off at 16 miles of range this is an issue with the battery.

 

[Tam]

...huge difference between the two and yet you choose #2 for your thread title...

It's just like All-You-Can-Eat-in-24-hours buffet restaurant refuses to honor "all I can eat".

The manager cites that the policy clearly says that lobster is not covered so all they can offer me is to pay up an additional $50 to stay or get out!

I would say that I am deadly allergic to eat lobster so please show me where the lobster is and where's the incriminating evidence that makes me pay additional $50 to stay?

 

[2012MS85]

According to the warranty page 4 years/50k miles.

Wow, if someone spent $25k for a replacement battery and only got 50,001 miles out of it before the next failure, that would be a worst case operating cost of $0.50 per mile! And that’s before adding in tires and other service or other maintenance costs. I’ve bragged about not driving my Escalade (except when I need to pull my camper or a trailer) and avoiding its “high” $0.15 per mile ($2.25 gas / 15 mpg) gas operating costs. Turns out my Teslas might become far more expensive than I had planned, if my P85 battery goes wonky in 18 more months (post the 8-year warranty).

My #1 fear is that folks who aren’t rich will stop considering the purchase of a new or used Tesla, period. Tesla’s mission was to make EV driving widely adopted and affordable for the masses, but 99% of the masses don’t have a spare $25k. Many of my non-rich friends (which is all of them) were considering my selling point of Tesla’s low operating costs (2-3 cents per mile for electricity). That’s out the window if I have to explain it’s generally 2-3 times cheaper per mile to operate versus their ICE vehicle...unless the battery fails, and then it’s WAY more expensive and might require a 2nd mortgage (on top of the car payment). I’m not so worried about my situation, but I’m thinking this could be a fatal blow to adoption by the masses if/when stories such as the OP’s hits the newsfeed. This single, crazy high cost item could be Tesla’s true Achilles heel if they can’t get that replacement price way down.

 

[mrneef]

There has to be more to the story. There are many people who have gotten a replacement battery without much hesitation from Tesla. If you happen to be in the Los Angeles area, I can plug in my CAN bus reader and have a look at the battery and BMS. My guess is that some cells or a module is failing. THat's not degradation, that's a defect that should be covered by the warranty.

Can I take you up on that offer?