Info on Autopilot + v7

[beeeerock]

Great post! Thanks!




I can see how and why this would be useful, but I can also see why Tesla wants to just "yield control" if the driver is attempting to steer. It is really simple to give steering control back to the car, which I think makes this less of an issue than it otherwise might be.

I agree, there is definitely some logic to how it works right now. But in my case - and perhaps on the learning curve - there were a couple of times when I didn't realize my hand had been heavy enough to trip Autopilot offline and had I not heard the double beep, might have released my hand completely and ground up against a concrete median barrier on a long curve. If I don't leave the lane with my 'intervention', I'd like Autopilot to remain on. Miss a bit of blown out tire or a pothole etc...

Another example was passing a wide load on a sweeper curve with concrete no-post on the left. Autopilot seemed to know where the barrier and the truck were, but didn't completely calculate the overhang of the excavator on the back. There was space, but Autopilot wanted to put me down the centre of the lane, which felt uncomfortably close to the load. I blinked before Autopilot did and adjusted the steering closer to the barrier. It tripped out. And left me to carry on. I was ready, because I was trying to find the limits of the system, but I didn't feel comfortable with how it managed that situation.

It just feels like a little more fuzziness in how it decides to trip offline would improve the situation. It could even be a setting like with regen - normal or minimal - just something to determine how little intervention will shut it down.

Somewhat related - I wish that TACC wouldn't leave the braking to the last minute. I've been hoping this behaviour would change with ver 7, but I still hear the brake mechanism activating and feel myself pucker as we approach a slower or stopping car! This will NOT work well if the roads are at all icy or slippery. Yes, TACC perhaps shouldn't be used in those conditions, but people WILL use it and it's going to cost in insurance claims.

 

[511keV]

Great post! Thanks!




I can see how and why this would be useful, but I can also see why Tesla wants to just "yield control" if the driver is attempting to steer. It is really simple to give steering control back to the car, which I think makes this less of an issue than it otherwise might be.

I found my Model S continually "yielding control" a bit annoying when traveling in the right lane on highways when the car wanted to take every exit and I tried to guide the car to continue on the highway. Hopefully, all of the "learning" that occurs whenever a driver takes control will fix this over time. Given that I'm far from the mothership and probably where most beta testing was done, the highways exits around Boston probably aren't as well known to the navigation subsystem of Autopilot (Beta,) so I learning to live with it and, hopefully, watch my feedback improve things.

 

[wcalvin]

Hmmm, just like there is a simple tap up and down on the TACC control To make 1 mph adjustments, maybe there should be a way to tell the car to align itself more left or right in the lane.

Maybe just a long enough manual steering override to set it to the new lane position for the next 30 sec.

 

[Andyw2100]

Hmmm, just like there is a simple tap up and down on the TACC control To make 1 mph adjustments, maybe there should be a way to tell the car to align itself more left or right in the lane.

I actually started a thread on this a few days ago. It's here:

Possible Autosteer Enhancement - Temporary Left or Right Side Lane Preference

 

[Panu]

Looking at the videos from USA it looks like AP changes lane after tapping turn signal without requiring the driver to touch the steering wheel. Today Tesla owners have received v7 in Finland and they are reporting that you have to initiate the lane change by 1) tapping turn signal and 2) turning steering wheel. Is this behaviour EU only or did they already change it to require more driver input? The version they have in Finland is 2.7.77.

 

[Andyw2100]

Looking at the videos from USA it looks like AP changes lane after tapping turn signal without requiring the driver to touch the steering wheel. Today Tesla owners have received v7 in Finland and they are reporting that you have to initiate the lane change by 1) tapping turn signal and 2) turning steering wheel. Is this behaviour EU only or did they already change it to require more driver input? The version they have in Finland is 2.7.77.

That is a later version than the version released in the US.

The US version currently does not require us to touch the steering wheel to initiate a lane change.

 

[ecarfan]

Looking at the videos from USA it looks like AP changes lane after tapping turn signal without requiring the driver to touch the steering wheel. Today Tesla owners have received v7 in Finland and they are reporting that you have to initiate the lane change by 1) tapping turn signal and 2) turning steering wheel. Is this behaviour EU only or did they already change it to require more driver input? The version they have in Finland is 2.7.77.

The way out works in the US is as you describe. No steering input is required. Sounds like the way it works in Finland is different. Interesting.

 

[Soolim]

Looking at the videos from USA it looks like AP changes lane after tapping turn signal without requiring the driver to touch the steering wheel. Today Tesla owners have received v7 in Finland and they are reporting that you have to initiate the lane change by 1) tapping turn signal and 2) turning steering wheel. Is this behaviour EU only or did they already change it to require more driver input? The version they have in Finland is 2.7.77.

I like the two step process for lane change, while a quick tap on the turn signal will allow the driver to provide left or right bias while lane keeping.

 

[Panu]

The way out works in the US is as you describe. No steering input is required. Sounds like the way it works in Finland is different. Interesting.

Yes, it's interesting to see if it remains the same in US in version 2.7.77 and above.

 

[beeeerock]

The way out works in the US is as you describe. No steering input is required. Sounds like the way it works in Finland is different. Interesting.

I wonder if this has anything to do with the delay in release outside of North America.

 

[Dborn]

Lane change in Australia requires you hand on the wheel, not initiating the turn, rather telling the car " I'm here". Then turning on the turn signal until the dotted lane marker becomes solid.

 

[Matias]

Same in Finland with 7.77.

 

[Andyw2100]

Lane change in Australia requires you hand on the wheel, not initiating the turn, rather telling the car " I'm here". Then turning on the turn signal until the dotted lane marker becomes solid.

I understand what you are saying, but don't understand the logic behind it, as it would seem being able to move the directional signal should be enough of an indication to the car that a driver is present and paying attention.

I wonder if the need to touch the wheel is meeting some sort of regulatory requirement.

 

[Soolim]

I understand what you are saying, but don't understand the logic behind it, as it would seem being able to move the directional signal should be enough of an indication to the car that a driver is present and paying attention.

I wonder if the need to touch the wheel is meeting some sort of regulatory requirement.

I wonder what sort of regulatory requirement Japan will impose for lane change safety.:wink: Not aware of any Japanese car having this feature yet. Anyone knows?

- - - Updated - - -

Lane change in Australia requires you hand on the wheel, not initiating the turn, rather telling the car " I'm here". Then turning on the turn signal until the dotted lane marker becomes solid.

Have you tried it, and do you feel safe using it?

 

[Cebe]

In some of the countries, the rule is:
1. Check if it's clear
2. Signal
3. Check again
4. Change the lane

By letting signaling (step 2) initiate the actual lane change (step 4), you're missing a step.

Not defending the rule, just sayin'.

 

[beeeerock]

I think there is a big danger with people assuming the AP software is more capable than it is! Or, with people assuming it is *intended* to do more than it is.

I know there are plenty who will disagree with me, but I don't think drivers should be driving with their hands free... texting, eating, whatever... while AP is left to do the work of driving.

Driving on freeways in stop and go traffic might make this behaviour almost reasonable, but the bottom line is that the driver is responsible for what his car does. I've learned that AP can make decisions very quickly and cause the car to do things suddenly and almost without warning. That's fine with me - it IS beta software after all. As responsible drivers and Tesla owners, we want the company to succeed and our actions should support that goal. IMHO that includes ensuring AP doesn't become a huge mistake, by using it responsibly. We shouldn't be risking our lives or the lives of others in our path by 'pushing the envelope' carelessly.

The software pops up a notice when activated that the driver should continue to hold the wheel. I don't think that's just a legal disclaimer to be used as a defense by Tesla if something goes wrong.

I'm treating AP as a tool to look after keeping the car centered in the lane and help me keep track of other cars around me, both in front and beside. I'm driving with it on AND with my hands on the wheel. If and when it does something unexpected, I'm able to catch it before the car has tracked more than a foot or two off my desired line. AP looks after fine-tuning my driving and letting me not concentrate *quite* as hard. Not go to sleep or catch up on my emails.

 

[Soolim]

I'm treating AP as a tool to look after keeping the car centered in the lane and help me keep track of other cars around me, both in front and beside. I'm driving with it on AND with my hands on the wheel. If and when it does something unexpected, I'm able to catch it before the car has tracked more than a foot or two off my desired line. AP looks after fine-tuning my driving and letting me not concentrate *quite* as hard. Not go to sleep or catch up on my emails.

Voice of reason. Spoken by a driver who has tested the auto-steer extensively.

 

[garygid]

In some of the countrIes, the rule is:
1. Check if it's clear
2. Signal
3. Check again
4. Change the lane

By letting signaling (step 2) initiate the actual lane change (step 4), you're missing a step.

Not defending the rule, just sayin'.

I believe that the implied delay between 2 and 4, intended to give fast-approaching
(and other) vehicles a suitable warning of your intended lane change, is a critical
part of improving the safety of lane changes.

Using the turn signal to indicate only "I am in the process of changing lanes" is not
enough, since most can see that your car is moving sideways. Using it to signal
your intention to move into the adjacent lane, BEFORE you start the maneuver, to
give others ample and sufficient warning, should be the major goal, for safer driving.

So, the "delay" (implied in step 3) with the signal going is a very important feature
for a safer AP to implement.

- - - Updated - - -

I like the two step process for lane change, while a quick tap
on the turn signal will allow the driver to provide left or right bias while lane keeping.

Is there any real indication that there is any way in AP at this point to set a preference for
following the left or right lane-edge marking?
If so, that would help AP a great deal, since on most all lane splits, the AP has no
idea which lane we want to enter, and we currently need to take over steering
(which cancells AP completely) to enter our own lane of choice, which might
be different than what we did yesterday.

 

[Soolim]

In some of the countries, the rule is:
1. Check if it's clear
2. Signal
3. Check again
4. Change the lane

By letting signaling (step 2) initiate the actual lane change (step 4), you're missing a step.

My preference is: Driver does step 1, 2, 3, and then turn the wheel for AP to implement step 4.

- - - Updated - - -

I believe that the implied delay between 2 and 4, intended to give fast-approaching
(and other) vehicles a suitable warning of your intended lane change, is a critical
part of improving the safety of lane changes.

Using the turn signal to indicate only "I am in the process of changing lanes" is not
enough, since most can see that your car is moving sideways. Using it to signal
your intention to move into the adjacent lane, BEFORE you start the maneuver, to
give others ample and sufficient warning, should be the major goal, for safer driving.

So, the "delay" (implied in step 3) with the signal going is a very important feature
for a safer AP to implement. -

I fully support this implementation of AP auto-steer in future AP release. I feel safer using it in that manner.

 

[beeeerock]

Hmmm, just when I thought the car was learning to behave at a few spots on my regular highway, it's taken to (apparently) randomly deciding whether to do what I've 'taught' it and just doing what it did wrong. I've tried setting the NAV to imply a turn would be wrong and I've seen it randomly misbehave when following another vehicle that follows the alignment properly. So I'm not sure how much learning is going on and how much decision making depends on weather, surrounding traffic, speed etc. Or if it's just Beta software issues that will be improved as time goes on.

My perception is that it gets it right about 2/3 of the time now. And with time between trips, I almost wonder if the learned behavior has a Time To Live value connected to it... which causes it to expire and require re-learning.

It sure would be nice to have access to a white paper of some sort describing more of the details of how it works. I can't help but think there are Tesla folks in the know reading these threads and betting with each other on who will be the first to reverse-engineer the finer details of the AP system, simply by testing and watching how it behaves...