Is 350 miles enough for towing 10k pounds?

[alexgr]

They tested the Rivian at max towing 11,000 pounds and found a 50% reduction in range

Not bad, especially, if they were towing uphill. Have they disclosed the average speed? It seems they were going about 50 mph max.

 

[firsttruck]

Even 500mi tri-motor Cybertruck might not be enough in some cases. Weight might not even be the most important factor. Using a 50% towing factor is an average, it could be much worse or it could be less severe.

You might be missing the most important factors winds & aerodynamics. The weight 10K lbs weight is mostly a factor when accelerating & going uphills. Will you do a lot of stop & go traffic? Will you be going uphill or mountains?

If you will be mostly doing a steady speed on level road then the primary factors are weather (temps, snow, rain), wind conditions & trailer aerodynamics (drag, turbulence, vortices).

Things that make a difference:
weather: (temps, snowing, raining, road surface snow, water, ice)
winds: headwind, tailwind, crosswind angle, wind speed
What shape of trailer front: flat like box (brick wall), round, V point.
height of trailer vs Cybertruck
width of trailer vs Cybertruck
hitch area total gap length (back of Cybertruck to front panel of trailer)
Cybertruck bed/vault cover: closed, open & what is in bed
shape of trailer body: round like Airstream, Teardrop, Bullet or rectangular like most
smoothness of trailer surface (fiberglass, aluminum, even flushness of seams, rivets, windows/doors flush with body)
protrusions from shape (A/C, pipes, vents, antenna, awnings, ladders/steps, etc)
under-body: smooth or not
speed: 75 mph vs 70 vs 65 vs 60 vs 55

Do you know model of trailer you will be towing?

 

[ThomasD]

You would most likely see a 50 to 60% range reduction with something like this

 

[azjohn]

I found the video:

The camper is said to be somewhere between 3000 and 3500 lbs. It's okay for Model Y since I would only expect it to tow a HomeDepot trailer once in awhile.

Considering that CT should be able to tow more than Model Y, but Tesla motors are more or less the same on all their cars (the same 2 types), I wonder if Tesla is going to increase the gear ratio in CT... but then they will decrease acceleration. Hmm.. Are they going for a two- (or more) gear transmission similar to Taycan? Otherwise they may need a very new motor design for CT. Any thoughts?

Model Y is still just a car, and ICE car wouldn't be any better. There is more to towing than just power/torque

IMO 350 miles towing 10K lbs is best case scenario

 

[KenC]

I am a tri motor trim pre order holder since unveiled.

But given recent financial insights, I understand that saving money for retirement is more important than wasting on new cars, yet I still want the CT, so I am thinking, what if I go with the dual motor trim when configuration time comes?

I guess that 350 miles is really 150 miles between charges.
I currently live in Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada, the first two superchargers seem to be within that range.

Is the entire network set to allow me to travel and explore the continent with the dual motor trim towing a trailer?

I think 10k is enough for any boat, camper trailer for 6-10 people.. I am not sure at all what does the third motor do.

I would keep it forever, so battery degradation after warranty period is something that I have to think about...

Although paying say, 10k for replacing the battery after say 10 years, is cheaper than giving the 20k to Tesla and pay interest over that financing..

I might as well put 10k for 10 years in stocks, and with compounding interest, I will have about $22,196.40 with average market returns of 8% annually.

So, please tell me, is driving around with 150 miles between charges viable?

You need to try some sample trips into ABRP. I've done it without towing, and the Cyber triple will save you alot of time. The double is doable, but I'm spoiled with the Model 3 LR-AWD. I would have a hard time driving a BEV that takes longer to get somewhere than what I currently drive, and the Triple takes about the same time as my 3. It doesn't matter if it's just a 300 mile trip or a 3000 mile trip.

150 mile range while towing will not get you far. There's no margin for error. Honestly, anyone towing more than 100 miles will need to order a triple.

 

[ThomasD]

Since the people from up north tow their 35 to 40 foot double and triple axle campers down here every year I'm going to ask them what kind of range they are getting with their cybertrucks and how much of a pain it is to charge.

 

[dazedNconfuzed]

"Are you saying I shouldnt count on the last 20% of power for road trips?"

Relative to ICE, chargers are sparse and near-full charging takes time. If you hit 20%, you'd best focus entirely on finding a charger ASAP.

 

[Off_Oil]

I would want the Cybertruck to pull a 5,000 lb trailer. After looking at these projections, it would be cutting it razor thin for the single motor, and close for the dual before accounting for degradation, and supercharging to 80% at stops.

To the OP, I'd seriously consider a diesel instead. Otherwise I'd wait to see real world data instead of being the (expensive) guinea pig. I think this is what I'll do. I personally don't see the 70k version making any kind of economic sense. I also don't foresee the 20k difference being made up in the fuel or maintenance cost differences over the truck's lifespan.

 

[Capt Starbucks]

I'm signed up to be the Guinea pig.

I plan on towing my 12k boat about 180 miles from my house to the places I fish. I expected to get half the range from the start. My 2001 F250 gets 19-23 mpg empty, 13 with my boat behind it.

 

[dhrivnak]

Do you currently have an EV? If so, you’ll know if frequent charging would be annoying in that scenario. But here are some more suggestions.
You mention 100-20, but I said 80-20. The battery doesn’t like to be at 100, you can do 100 for a trip, but I believe the charging slows down significantly from 90-100. So you can push it to 100 at home and start your trip. Supercharging is, I believe but you should confirm, done to 80% quickly, maybe even 90%, but going to 100% again I believe it slows down. So typically you can start trip 100, but all the stops will likely be up to 80-90%. You can go lower then 20, but how much lower will depend on your risk factor//comfort zone. If the vehicle stops, it’s not just a matter of using a jerry can, you need power and I know from what I have read the vehicle doesn’t like that.
Yes 20k USD is a lot, and more chargers will be installed, and more EV’s will be stopping at them to charge.
Maybe search the X forum and find out how much less range you get when towing.
I am getting a 3motor, so I can do a weekly round trip without stopping to charge, something that can’t be done with the current vehicles.

When you go on a trip charge to 100%. I have been doing that for 34 months now. And my daily charge is 90%. And no degradation in 48,000+ miles. By only charging from 20-80 the pack gta out of balance and the BMS can not figure the proper full range.

 

[OakvilleMYP]

When you go on a trip charge to 100%. I have been doing that for 34 months now. And my daily charge is 90%. And no degradation in 48,000+ miles. By only charging from 20-80 the pack gta out of balance and the BMS can not figure the proper full range.

Will the 20-80 degrade the battery or just display incorrect range?
I don’t really care for the ‘estimated’ range, I use it as a guide only. I think someone towing wouldn’t want to run to 2% before they start thinking about charging. Thats why my first question was ‘do you have an EV?’
I actually do 40-80% daily.

 

[Daks]

Capt Starbucks - I wish my 2015 F350 Diesel got that mileage... 15 in town and if I am driving far I've managed to get 14 pulling 7500 pounds... (18 without pulling)...

To the OP - If you are going to be a Guineau pig - I'd get the trimotor (I am). Like me, you live in a cold climate and EVs lose range in the cold and they take longer to supercharge. Just read this forum and you will see people asking with they are not getting 250KW and it's only in the +40Fs or around 10C outside. ow throw a trailer behind you... A buddy had a bolt up here and he went from 300 miles AER in the summer to 100 miles in the coldest part of winter... Waiting for him to report back on the Y once the coldest part of winter hits... That's without pulling... The good is that Tesla is making pull through and larger spots for the Cybertruck - BUT - are they going to be as close together as current superchargers are? Probably not for a while. Obviously, you know your use case and your budget and it's your money...

OakvilleMYP - going below 20% is worse then above 90% (per Elon 90 is OK) and going to 100 for a trip is fine, but don't keep it for long periods of time at 100%... If you talk to the people or watch youtubes of people that have put 100s of thousands of miles on Tesla's it isn't something I'd stress out over. Even people that have done nothing but supercharge are not reporting seriously degraded packs - Tesla knows how much you SC and will restrict how fast it will charge to protect the pack. No saying you can't find someone that has to replace a pack or one that has degraded... just overall.

Finally, if you are on a trip as mentioned, ABRP will tell you how long to stop and charge to make it to your destination. It might be quicker to stop say4 times rather than 2-3 times to 100%.... You have to think differently... In an ICE vehicle, you are going to just top off because it doesn't take that much time...

We've had an EV in the past and have a Y and Cyber Tri on order...

 

[dhrivnak]

Will the 20-80 degrade the battery or just display incorrect range?
I don’t really care for the ‘estimated’ range, I use it as a guide only. I think someone towing wouldn’t want to run to 2% before they start thinking about charging. Thats why my first question was ‘do you have an EV?’
I actually do 40-80% daily.

There are three problems one is trying to avoid. Going from 0-100% will slightly damage the battery as there is some swelling and shrinkage that happens at the extremes. That is real and should be minimized.

But it is also true the pack is only as good as its weakest brick and to equalize the bricks you need a high state of charge. Between 20-80% the cell voltage is quite flat so the BMS can’t see a low brick or a high one. So above 90% you can see this and the BMS can equalize the bricks. If the pack gets out of balance, you can see a real loss in range.

The third issue is the BMS needs calibration or it will drift off. If it never sees 0 or 100% it will make a guess often a conservative one.

So occasionally going from 0-100 keeps the pack balanced and calibrated. But doing too much damages the cells. So for me about 4 times a year when on a trip I can use the range I fully charge.

 

[OakvilleMYP]

There are three problems one is trying to avoid. Going from 0-100% will slightly damage the battery as there is some swelling and shrinkage that happens at the extremes. That is real and should be minimized.

But it is also true the pack is only as good as its weakest brick and to equalize the bricks you need a high state of charge. Between 20-80% the cell voltage is quite flat so the BMS can’t see a low brick or a high one. So above 90% you can see this and the BMS can equalize the bricks. If the pack gets out of balance, you can see a real loss in range.

The third issue is the BMS needs calibration or it will drift off. If it never sees 0 or 100% it will make a guess often a conservative one.

So occasionally going from 0-100 keeps the pack balanced and calibrated. But doing too much damages the cells. So for me about 4 times a year when on a trip I can use the range I fully charge.

Got it. I’ll push the Y to 100% and then go for a ride as soon as it gets to 100. I kept going to 80% bc I didn’t need more range in the summer. For the winter as the temp starts to drop, I planned to start increasing it to 90%. At 0*C I haven’t seen any range drop yet. Waiting for -10*C and -20*C to see what the practical range drop will be.

 

[dhrivnak]

Got it. I’ll push the Y to 100% and then go for a ride as soon as it gets to 100. I kept going to 80% bc I didn’t need more range in the summer. For the winter as the temp starts to drop, I planned to start increasing it to 90%. At 0*C I haven’t seen any range drop yet. Waiting for -10*C and -20*C to see what the practical range drop will be.

Again, just a few times a year I let mine set a few hours at 100% as battery balance takes some time. So if we leave for a long trip in the morning I will plug I before bedtime.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

You would most likely see a 50 to 60% range reduction with something like this

You would with a Ford half ton as well. And that’s from experience.

 

[uujjj2]

The range reduction from towing isn't linear. But as a (very) crude rule of thumb, you can assume a trailer of x pounds will consume x/10 Wh/mi, on top of whatever your vehicle normally uses. So a 5000lb trailer will take 500Wh/mi, and a 10000lb trailer will take 1000Wh/mi. At 55mph, a Cybertruck might consume around 400Wh/mi, so a Cybertruck with a 10000lb trailer will take 1400Wh/mi. If the Cybertruck has a 200kWh battery, you'll get about 140mi highway range towing a 10000lb trailer, and around 220mi with a 5000lb trailer.

This rule of thumb is obviously very crude, and probably a bit conservative. Aerodynamics matters a lot, so a 10000lb aerodynamic camper will probably get better range than a 5000lb boat, for instance. But I think the kwh/mi = weight/10 rule of thumb can get you started calculating how much battery you need for towing.

 

[Off_Oil]

The range reduction from towing isn't linear. But as a (very) crude rule of thumb, you can assume a trailer of x pounds will consume x/10 Wh/mi, on top of whatever your vehicle normally uses. So a 5000lb trailer will take 500Wh/mi, and a 10000lb trailer will take 1000Wh/mi. At 55mph, a Cybertruck might consume around 400Wh/mi, so a Cybertruck with a 10000lb trailer will take 1400Wh/mi. If the Cybertruck has a 200kWh battery, you'll get about 140mi highway range towing a 10000lb trailer, and around 220mi with a 5000lb trailer.

This rule of thumb is obviously very crude, and probably a bit conservative. Aerodynamics matters a lot, so a 10000lb aerodynamic camper will probably get better range than a 5000lb boat, for instance. But I think the kwh/mi = weight/10 rule of thumb can get you started calculating how much battery you need for towing.

I want to be able to pull a 20' Airstream, plus gear in the truck bed. The Airstream trailer max is 5,000lbs and completely dry with LP is 4,300 with the actual towing weight being somewhere in-between. If I use the assumptions above with a 4,500lb trailer and a 150 mile range it would require a 127.5 kWh battery. For most of the drive the actual speed limit is 70mph vs the 55mph assumption, and while I could go below this 55mph would be generally unsafe, so there may be additional losses there. This would knock out the dual motor version which is the max I'd be willing to go in price. A well equipped GMC Denali Canyon diesel would be about $47,000 and there's no way I'm personally willing to spend $70k on a vehicle that will depreciate to zero unless the comparable TCO difference is conservatively positive. Another spec I believe we don't know is the supported hitch weight. All this is leading back to my original conclusion that if one is going to tow any serious distance, it would be wise to have some real world data before making the purchase.

 

[ThomasD]

AT least Rivian has done some tow testing. Tesla hasn't done any. Don't forget to subtract the tongue weight of the trailer from the vehicle weight rating Figure a 12,000 pound trailer most likely has a hitch weight of 1200 pounds. With a towing capacity of 14000 pounds the cyber truck should have a hitch weight around 1800 pounds

 

[mikes_fsd]

AT least Rivian has done some tow testing. Tesla hasn't done any. Don't forget to subtract the tongue weight of the trailer from the vehicle weight rating Figure a 12,000 pound trailer most likely has a hitch weight of 1200 pounds. With a towing capacity of 14000 pounds the cyber truck should have a hitch weight around 1800 pounds

Sweet, you have an inside source that says Tesla has not done any tow testing?
Do tell!