Is it possible to hack the software to unlock battery, autopilot, etc.?

[Canuck]

I said it was legal to modify a grey market receiver to receive content. It is. You are the one who immediately jumped to that meaning encrypted content, which I never specified.

The only signals not encrypted, and received on a satellite receiver, are the free preview channels. I didn't jump anywhere because the case itself says this:

The respondents facilitate what is generally referred to as “grey marketing” of foreign broadcast signals. Although there is much debate -- indeed rhetoric -- about the term, it is not necessary to enter that discussion in these reasons.

Grey market is having a US subscription in Canada. There is much debate about that, as the Supreme Court of Canada says but it's not illegal. If you want to pay Tesla US, rather than Tesla Canada, to unlock your battery, go for it. That's grey market -- especially if Tesla couldn't sell here but we had a Canadian equivalent. There's no such thing as:

I said it was legal to modify a grey market receiver to receive content.

That makes no sense. Once you "modify" you are BLACK market -- not grey!

I know many people who have Directv in Canada and pay for it through a US address. That's very different than opening up their receiver and modifying it to get the programming. That's clearly not criminal to pay for your programming -- opening up your receiver and modifying it is criminal.

You really need to understand the basic issues and what they mean before you debate so categorically.

Wow, and I was under the impression that our Canadian friends were almost too nice and too friendly at times....

There's exceptions to every rule. Still, I'd be pleased to sit down with @green1 and have a beer and discuss this and other issues with him. None of this is personal. I like a good debate.

 

[green1]

You really need to understand the basic issues and what they mean before you debate so categorically.

Says the man who brought decrypting satellite TV signals in to a debate about modifying vehicles and categorically stated that this would be "theft" despite not meeting the legal definition of such.

There are many unencrypted channels, and your court case does not anywhere specify any problem with modifying the equipment, or receiving unapproved channels, it only specifies a problem with receiving encrypted channels because of the simple fact that they are encrypted. Therefore modifying receivers=legal, receiving encrypted content=illegal. You were using this as proof that doing modifications is illegal, when in fact it does not show that at all and only shows that receiving encrypted content is illegal, something nobody has said they have any intention of doing except you.

Are you still clinging to the irrational belief that this is in some way relevant to the topic of this thread which deals neither with satellite signals, nor encryption? Or are you ready to admit you were wrong on that one?

 

[Canuck]

Are you still clinging to the irrational belief that this is in some way relevant to the topic of this thread which deals neither with satellite signals, nor encryption? Or are you ready to admit you were wrong on that one?

Yes, you're right. It's completely legal to bypass the controls that prevent you from unlocking your battery and there's no correlation at all with unlocking a satellite receiver. In fact, lawyers never argue other technology in cases where new technology arises. That's just plain stupid and makes no sense at all...

If you order 12 doughnuts, and there are 13 in the box, is it wrong, legally, or morally, to eat the 13th one? You asked for 12, paid for 12, and they happened to include a 13th. They never told you not to eat it, but they also never said you could. It's a grey area.

There's no grey area about it. It's theft and it's black and white according to the law.

For example, the bank deposits funds accidentally to your account. You spend them = theft.

I'd give you the case-law but something tells me you'll distinguish it or call it irrelevant so what's the point?

 

[green1]

Yes, you're right. It's completely legal to bypass the controls that prevent you from unlocking your battery and there's no correlation at all with unlocking a satellite receiver. In fact, lawyers never argue other technology in cases where new technology arises. That's just plain stupid and makes no sense at all...

Other technology isn't the point, if you had proved it was illegal to modify the receiver to receive unencrypted content, you might have a point that might be transferable to a vehicle, but you didn't. Or if you found ANY case where it was deemed illegal to modify a device to unlock hidden features you might have a point that might be transferable to a vehicle.

But so far the ONLY thing you've proved is that decrypting encrypted communications is illegal (which is 100% irrelevant to the point at hand)
And that the DMCA prohibits bypassing access control mechanisms, which again is 100% irrelevant because we are specifically talking about cars which have a specific exemption to that clause.
It should also be noted, that you could likely unlock these features without full root by using Tesla's network API which wouldn't even require bypassing ANYTHING.

 

[green1]

For example, the bank deposits funds accidentally to your account. You spend them = theft.

Maybe my analogy was flawed with the doughnuts, I'll admit that. But that doesn't make what we're talking about theft because you aren't depriving anyone of anything by enabling the feature.

It's very much a grey area, and I haven't seen any relevant case law on unlocking features you haven't paid for yet.

So far the only laws you've quoted are a prohibition on decrypting encrypted communications, the DMCA, and laws against theft. I've explained in detail why none of those laws apply. Do you have any other laws to suggest? (don't just say it's illegal, specify a law, you can't just go to court and say "it's illegal!" you need to tell the judge which law you think was broken!)

 

[Canuck]

Other technology isn't the point, if you had proved it was illegal to modify the receiver to receive unencrypted content, you might have a point that might be transferable to a vehicle, but you didn't.

That makes no sense. If the content is unencrypted, why would anyone modify the receiver to get it? You get it without modifying the receiver!

That's like asking me: "When did you stop beating your wife".

 

[mmcc]

Yes, you're right. It's completely legal to bypass the controls that prevent you from unlocking your battery and there's no correlation at all with unlocking a satellite receiver. In fact, lawyers never argue other technology in cases where new technology arises. That's just plain stupid and makes no sense at all...



There's no grey area about it. It's theft and it's black and white according to the law.

For example, the bank deposits funds accidentally to your account. You spend them = theft.

I'd give you the case-law but something tells me you'll distinguish it or call it irrelevant so what's the point?

Bad example.

You would not be depriving the party lawfully entitled because nobody can be expected to return a donut.

 

[Dstrohl]

Unless there is another agreement that you have to sign during the receipt of the car, the normal terms and conditions does not prohibit (or cover at all) making any changes to the car, including hacking it to turn on any new features. The warranty doesn't specifically cover it either (surprisingly) though it does say the warranty is void if "Any repair, alteration or modification of the vehicle that was made inappropriately, or the installation or use of fluids, parts or accessories, made by a person or facility not authorized or certified to do so;", which I am sure making those changes would be considered... Also, given how "connected" the car is, if you made the change and disabled the VPN so they could not put it back, you would find that lots of other things stopped working.

You would also be taking the chance that you could be destroying the car if it was done wrong, and not have any recourse through the warranty. I'm thinking that, for example, if you enabled the autopilot flag, but missed another flag that enabled "steering servos", or turned on a flag that enabled "75Kw Batt Charging", but missed that there was one for "battery charge limit" and the system did not correctly sense when to stop charging... (I am making these up, I have no real idea how the licensing works, but then, neither does the person hacking it). This is one thing when poking around on a phone, or in a software package that the worst that could happen is you have to reinstall your computer operating system, its totally another thing when messing around with enough power to kill you and a vehicle that moves at 60 miles per hour down the freeway.

In terms of it being theft, I agree morally it is, but I suspect that "legally", it probably isn't. (Note, I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV). I am 100% sure it can be done, and pretty sure if it was you would lose your warranty, and 200% sure I wouldn't try it in a real car. (possibly a bench system though).

 

[Canuck]

Bad example.

You would not be depriving the party lawfully entitled because nobody can be expected to return a donut.

True, but we are arguing principles here and not minute details. Relating it back to Tesla, there is an expectation of fee for a bigger battery. For an extra donut, of course not. Thus, the example is in relation to the larger point being made.

Unless there is another agreement that you have to sign during the receipt of the car, the normal terms and conditions does not prohibit (or cover at all) making any changes to the car, including hacking it to turn on any new features.

Theft is not based on breaching terms and conditions. That's civil law -- not criminal law.

There's no requirement to put in the terms and condition that hacking your 60 to make a 75 is illegal. In fact, it would be bizarre to put that in the terms, since arguably it would serve as an encouragement rather than a prohibition. Perhaps they may need it civilly -- but not criminally, We all know that ignorance of the law is no excuse. We all know that there's a reason you pay more for a 75 than a 60. I know many have not been in criminal courts, but I have (not as a defendant, knock wood) and these "technical" arguments that people make here that may sound good only make judges roll their eyes and sound absurd when voiced in open court. They sound absurd to me here -- to think anyone can buy a 60 in the US or Canada and then hack it be a 75 and say there's nothing illegal about it. Now, ship it to China to it and I'll agree with you. It's not illegal over there -- it's the wild west of intellectual property theft. But no one will ever convince me it's legal to do here. Not a chance.

 

[green1]

That makes no sense. If the content is unencrypted, why would anyone modify the receiver to get it? You get it without modifying the receiver!

Now who's showing their ignorance of how things work?
Receivers don't receive "all unencrypted content" they receive exactly the specified channels they're told to receive. If they aren't told to receive it, they don't.
Many people take receivers designed to pick up north american TV signals, re-aim the dish to pick up different physical satellites, and then modify the software to receive the signals on those other satellites. This is especially common for people wanting TV channels from foreign countries (usually middle east or europe). As many of these channels are unencrypted, it's perfectly legal. Many of the pre-broadcast streams are also unencrypted, and viewing them is also legal, though no receiver picks them up without modification.

 

[JoaoD]

Anyone that has bought a Tesla has a copy of the purchase agreement?
I read that there is a line in the agreement that says something along these lines: "You may not, and may not attempt to, reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile, tamper with or engage in any similar activity with respect of the Vehicle."
If this is true then you have your answer.

 

[green1]

Anyone that has bought a Tesla has a copy of the purchase agreement?
I read that there is a line in the agreement that says something along these lines: "You may not, and may not attempt to, reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile, tamper with or engage in any similar activity with respect of the Vehicle."
If this is true then you have your answer.

I don't have that line in anything I signed. (and yes, I have double and triple checked) In fact, there is nothing in the agreement that limits my after sale actions in any way whatsoever, or even attempts to.

As such, the only thing that would block this sort of thing would be if someone found a law against modifying your own property to enable features hidden by the manufacturer. I'm waiting for that law... someone quote me a specific law.

 

[gearchruncher]

What's the legal basis for denying warranty because you turned on a fully supported software option? Moss-magnuson says you can only deny warranties when you can show the modification caused the damage. If Tesla blocks your warranty, they are breaking the law as much as the "hacker".

 

[green1]

What's the legal basis for denying warranty because you turned on a fully supported software option? Moss-magnuson says you can only deny warranties when you can show the modification caused the damage. If Tesla blocks your warranty, they are breaking the law as much as the "hacker".

No, they're breaking the law MORE than the "hacker" because you've managed to quote specifically which law they're breaking whereas nobody has yet managed to quote any specific law the "hacker" would be breaking.

 

[Canuck]

Now who's showing their ignorance of how things work?
Receivers don't receive "all unencrypted content" they receive exactly the specified channels they're told to receive. If they aren't told to receive it, they don't.
Many people take receivers designed to pick up north american TV signals, re-aim the dish to pick up different physical satellites, and then modify the software to receive the signals on those other satellites. This is especially common for people wanting TV channels from foreign countries (usually middle east or europe). As many of these channels are unencrypted, it's perfectly legal. Many of the pre-broadcast streams are also unencrypted, and viewing them is also legal, though no receiver picks them up without modification.

What satellite receivers are you talking about? FTA? Dish to get Bell? Directv? Or what? While dish and bell both use Niagara, you can't just repoint the dish and get other programming without changing the firmware on the receiver. Are you telling me changing the firmware on the receiver is grey market? Because it's not. It's black market. Or are your referring to FTA receivers? Because there's no issue with them until you get into key rolling -- and that's black market. .

You need to be more specific because I am not ignorant at all on this subject. I know it in great detail having been involved in satellites tv from the start, to get US programming, given our CRTC BS censorship. But I always made sure I was staying on the right side of the law.

I don't have that line in anything I signed. (and yes, I have double and triple checked)

Did you check to see if you signed anything saying you won't break into your neighbour's home? If not, then go for it. It's clearly not illegal...

I know, you bought your car, and not your neighbour's home. That's going to take us up back to you hacking your satellite receiver being legal and I just can't go there. I got to get some work done.

Good debate. All the best. Bye for now.

 

[bkp_duke]

This gets even MORE complicated on 3rd party sales.

The buyer of the car from a dealer or 1st owner never signs anything with Tesla.

 

[McRat]

It would be interesting if a simple fooler would work.

I won't go there.

Using software code that you did not purchase is not always legal. If you program a car to accept the 75kWh programming, you have stolen that program.

You never own software anymore than you own the right to sell copies of a book you bought. You have the right to use IP you purchased, but you do not have the right to use IP that was not paid for.

Software turns on the functions, changing to another version would be probably a crime.

Case: Heavy duty diesels for agricultural and trucking are programmed for different power outputs. If you buy the 400HP tuning, that's what you get. If you bootleg a 450HP John Deere ECM file into your tractor, you will lose. This has already been decided already in court.

 

[green1]

What satellite receivers are you talking about? FTA? Dish to get Bell? Directv? Or what? While dish and bell both use Niagara, you can't just repoint the dish and get other programming without changing the firmware on the receiver. Are you telling me changing the firmware on the receiver is grey market? Because it's not. It's black market. Or are your referring to FTA receivers? Because there's no issue with them until you get into key rolling -- and that's black market. .

You need to be more specific because I am not ignorant at all on this subject. I know it in great detail having been involved in satellites tv from the start, to get US programming, given our CRTC BS censorship. But I always made sure I was staying on the right side of the law.



Did you check to see if you signed anything saying you won't break into your neighbour's home? If not, then go for it. It's clearly not illegal...

I know, you bought your car, and not your neighbour's home. That's going to take us up back to you hacking your satellite receiver being legal and I just can't go there. I got to get some work done.

Good debate. All the best. Bye for now.

I didn't sign an agreement not to break in to my neighbor's home, there's a law against it. Point to a law against modifying the car. You keep failing to do so.

 

[green1]

You never own software anymore than you own the right to sell copies of a book you bought.

Except we're not talking reselling, we're talking about modifying. It's perfectly legal to modify the book you bought.

: Heavy duty diesels for agricultural and trucking are programmed for different power outputs. If you buy the 400HP tuning, that's what you get. If you bootleg a 450HP John Deere ECM file into your tractor, you will lose. This has already been decided already in court.

Which is why the government in the USA specifically changed the law to exempt vehicles from the DMCA after that was used to prevent modifications. Do you have any examples using a law other than the DMCA? And don't go with any licence agreement law either, because as has been pointed out repeatedly, nobody here signed an agreement.

 

[green1]

This gets even MORE complicated on 3rd party sales.

The buyer of the car from a dealer or 1st owner never signs anything with Tesla.

There's no difference here because Tesla didn't make the original purchaser sign anything either.