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Is the Performance S a steal < 100K?

Is the Performance S a steal <100K

  • Yes

    Votes: 50 53.2%

  • No

    Votes: 44 46.8%
  • Total voters
    94
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#21
The cost comparisons above for Model S vs. luxury sedan are only valid if you buy the S because it's a luxury car. I didn't buy my Roadster for being a high-performance sports car, though I enjoy that aspect of it. I bought it for being electric. It's going to cost me $1,200 per year for maintenance + ranger fee. I don't drive a lot, so assuming 5,000 miles per year at 2.5 cents per mile for the electricity, fuel is $125 per year. My other car is a Prius. Maintenance is one oil change per year at about $75. Assuming $4 gas, and 45 mpg, 5,000 miles is $444 for fuel. If I needed a new sedan, my choice would not be Model S vs. BMW, it would be Model S vs. Prius. The Prius is about half the cost of a base 85 kWh Model S.

I would not save money on the S. I would choose the S because it's electric and I don't like gas.

But I'd still have to keep the Prius for road trips until such time as there is a reliably available super charger network where I want to drive, and that is not likely to be any time soon.

So the Model S is not a "steal" by any definition. It's not overpriced for what it is, but it would not save me any money.
 
#23
mnx said:
The List: 5 Under $50,000 That Go from 0-60 mph in Less Than 5 Seconds
Click to expand...

Well-spotted.

I guess it also depends on your buying range... If you typically shop for luxury performance vehicles, chances are, you're not looking at any brand on that list (though the Chryslers have definitely stepped it up in interior quality if what I saw @ CES is any indication). Though, in that range, you could still come in under the S Perf. In that range, you might be looking a tad north of there, to something like the CTS-V at the low end (about 63k but does the same 0-60 as the S). Further up the chain, you'd probably find things on this list: Luxury Sport Sedan Comparison - Acura RL vs Audi A6 vs BMW 535i vs Cadillac CTS vs Infiniti M35 vs Jaguar XF vs Lexus GS 350 vs Mercedes-Benz E350 - Motor Trend
 - which ranges from 50-60k (though none of their 0-60s come close to the S Perf). For that, you'd have to travel further up the lines (into the AMGs and RSs for example)
 
#24
daniel said:
The cost comparisons above for Model S vs. luxury sedan are only valid if you buy the S because it's a luxury car. I didn't buy my Roadster for being a high-performance sports car, though I enjoy that aspect of it. I bought it for being electric.

So the Model S is not a "steal" by any definition. It's not overpriced for what it is, but it would not save me any money.
Click to expand...

I agree !

I bought the Roadster instead of something else of equivalent performance because of what it is and all that it represents - an Electric supercar capable of running on power from sunlight that also gives me independance from oil. For the past 20+ yrs I've nearly always had at least one 'sports' car for fun, as well as a more practical older day to day car. I was also attracted to all the generous tax benefits and other incentives, and I would rather have fun with a Tesla than pay the money to the taxman.

The whole point of my previous posts was to shown that IF someone wanted to buy into a performance sedan and commit to that level of purchase, then there are significant reasons for choosing the Model S over ICE for many reasons, including greenness / environmental / financial / early adopter tendencies / etc.

But if someone wanted to just 'save money' they would not buy something as expensive as a Model S, and instead they'd be looking at a 5 to 10 yr old diesel and just run it into the ground. We have a family car in the form of a 10 yr old Audi A6 estate with an intergalactic 190,000 miles on it. I bought it at 90,000 for a very modest fee because the seller thought it was high mileage. It still feels like its 3 yrs old and does 50-55 mpg all day long, and if/when I sell it, I'll not loose anything significant on the capital cost. So far its barely cost anything to service and (touch wood) has been 100% reliable in all that time.

Its also a debatable point that running an older car is good for the environment overall instead of using up planetary resources buying a brand new car and doing the same mileage. I've often read that the energy consumed in manufacturing a car is as much as ten times the total fuel energy it will use in its entire lifetime. I certainly get that point, but calculating the actual ratio is probably somewhat difficult.
 
#25
mnx said:
It's definitely not a steal. But I don't think it's overpriced either...

Here's a list of cars that might be considered steals however (at just over half the price of a perf S )

The List: 5 Under $50,000 That Go from 0-60 mph in Less Than 5 Seconds
Click to expand...

Believe it or not I cross shopped the Subaru Impreza STI against the Model S. I think my 40kWh Model S will cost the same as the STI over 5 years ~100,000 miles. The fact that my car will never have to go to a gas station, I always have a full tank, it is much bigger, it is much nicer, it is much quieter, it doesn't have horrible turbo lag, all make it a 'better' choice in my book. But hardly a steal.

I really don't think having a 0-60 in less that 6 seconds is really worth it. I have a car that can't even do that and when I do a 0-60 run it seems dangerously quick.

That being said I have convinced my mom (after she saw the Houston Beta) to get one. I am pretty sure she thinks the Performance is a steal, so I really think it depends on income/affluence level.

EDIT: I also cross shopped the Mitsubishi EVO (only because the Subaru dealer was also a Mitsubishi dealer) but didn't even up driving it. That car is SO cheap on the inside and really small too. I couldn't spend ~20,000 miles a year in there.
 
#26
Once battery costs come down and they improve the interior to more people's liking (I'm fine with it though), I think it could be considered a steal compared to other luxury sedans in that price and performance range. Of course a steal doesn't mean a bargain when you're talking about this much money.
 
Last edited:
#28
daniel said:
The cost comparisons above for Model S vs. luxury sedan are only valid if you buy the S because it's a luxury car. I didn't buy my Roadster for being a high-performance sports car, though I enjoy that aspect of it. I bought it for being electric. It's going to cost me $1,200 per year for maintenance + ranger fee. I don't drive a lot, so assuming 5,000 miles per year at 2.5 cents per mile for the electricity, fuel is $125 per year. My other car is a Prius. Maintenance is one oil change per year at about $75. Assuming $4 gas, and 45 mpg, 5,000 miles is $444 for fuel. If I needed a new sedan, my choice would not be Model S vs. BMW, it would be Model S vs. Prius. The Prius is about half the cost of a base 85 kWh Model S.

I would not save money on the S. I would choose the S because it's electric and I don't like gas.

But I'd still have to keep the Prius for road trips until such time as there is a reliably available super charger network where I want to drive, and that is not likely to be any time soon.

So the Model S is not a "steal" by any definition. It's not overpriced for what it is, but it would not save me any money.
Click to expand...

Daniel,

The original question does not relate to the Model S production or even the standard sigs for that matter. It addresses a query into why people are choosing the performance version. I would say that given the robust performance of the 85 kWh pack, that if you decided to take the extra step of purchasing the perf. then you are purely interested in the power benefits. There are some who want to go performance for the interior benefits, and will "gladly take" the added benefit of the extra power, but let's face it. If you're in the market for a fast car, the Prius will never be on your list, no matter what it's mileage is. Now, you have to compare cars of similar size and power, interior quality. Then ask the question again.

I think the topic gets derailed when we forget that we are only talking about the performance variant.
 
#29
I have problems seriously considering top speed and 1/4 mile times as something germane to legal driving. The instant on power and traction control are the big selling points for the Tesla electrics and those features are also what I'd use most often. I'll prolly use the cornering fast pretty often (my wife habitually grabs the the door handle for some reason...) and the breaking much less often.

The other parts of performance not so much. So that's why a Perf S makes more sense to me than a Roadster, even though a low mileage used Roadster is prolly a better buy at this point.
 
#30
William3 said:
You guys are getting way too off track. You guys are all just struggling to list cars that cost more than the Model S and then proclaiming the Model S to be a bargain. Just because a Rolls Royce costs $300K and turns a 17 second 1/4 mile time doesn't mean that the Model S is a bargain.

To be a performance bargain it has to be the least costly car have "X" amount of performance.
Click to expand...
It depends on if you are looking purely at performance (if so, it's very unlikely a premium sedan like the Model S will be a performance bargain), or are you also looking at a sedan that's at least considered "premium" (none of the cars in the $50k list can be considered premium, and in my opinion all of them besides from the 300 looks a bit too flashy/boy racer).

Model S is $85k, 0-60 4.4.

In terms of a pure premium performance sedan bargain, the CTS-V is almost unbeatable starting at $65k, 0-60 3.9.

Otherwise you have to look at the 2012 Audi S6 (~$80k, 0-62 4.8s), 2012 Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG ($89k, 0-60 4.2), 2013 BMW M5 ($91k, 0-60 4.4), Jaguar XF-R ($82k, 0-60 4.7)

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1108_2012_audi_s6_s7_s8_first_look/viewall.html

It's better than Mercedes and BMW in terms of pricing, but not necessarily smaller brands like Audi and Jaguar (although it performs a bit better). I'm not going to bother looking for 1/4 mile numbers, since manufacturers rarely give those out.
 
#31
I would say it's on par or a tad of a bargain compared to comparably luxury sedans with similar performance. Personally for myself, it's a good deal. If I was NOT getting this car, I would have to buy a Lincoln AND a toy car + have the maintenance/insurance associated with each, so the Model S is a bargain for me.
 
#32
Not to rehash past discussions ... but don't forget the "total cost of operation" i.e., buying an S is like buying a 25K pre-paided gas card. When the CTS or M6 fills up for $75 you recharge for $7.50 plus no tune-ups, no oil changes, etc. etc. etc. That's why the Perf S is a steal (in the long run)!
 
#33
joefee said:
Not to rehash past discussions ... but don't forget the "total cost of operation" i.e., buying an S is like buying a 25K pre-paided gas card. When the CTS or M6 fills up for $75 you recharge for $7.50 plus no tune-ups, no oil changes, etc. etc. etc. That's why the Perf S is a steal (in the long run)!
Click to expand...

The other point is you can brag about being more efficient than even a Prius (have one's cake and eat it too). And charging on the average US grid, you will have low carbon emissions rivaling a hybrid (plus zero tailpipe emissions). You can't say the same with any of the other options mentioned.
 
#34
spatterso911 said:
Daniel,

The original question does not relate to the Model S production or even the standard sigs for that matter. It addresses a query into why people are choosing the performance version. I would say that given the robust performance of the 85 kWh pack, that if you decided to take the extra step of purchasing the perf. then you are purely interested in the power benefits. There are some who want to go performance for the interior benefits, and will "gladly take" the added benefit of the extra power, but let's face it. If you're in the market for a fast car, the Prius will never be on your list, no matter what it's mileage is. Now, you have to compare cars of similar size and power, interior quality. Then ask the question again.

I think the topic gets derailed when we forget that we are only talking about the performance variant.
Click to expand...
I misunderstood the thrust of your question. I read it as just the car itself. I.e. compared to the entire universe of cars. Of course, it depends on what you want. If performance is what you want, there is value in the Perf S compared to the 85 kWh non-Perf. In my case, I could have bought a sport Roadster, but the extra performance was of no interest to me. So for me, if I was buying an S, the Perf would not be a steal. It would be money spent to little purpose.

The original question could be interpreted as the Perf S vs. the non-Perf, or vs. a gasoline car. Since I hate gasoline, the latter is apples to oranges. A Corvette is a beautiful car and has great performance, but I would not have considered it even at 1/4 the cost of my Roadster because it is loud and burns gas.

No matter how the question was intended, the answer is purely subjective. For me, and for what matters to me, the Perf S is not a steal. But that's just me.

I drove a Honda Civic until I bought my Prius. To me, the Prius was really fast. :wink: It's not as comfortable as most other cars, and not as fast as performance cars, but when I must burn gas, it burns less, so for me it's the best value out there for gas cars. Of course, now that the Roadster is my daily driver, the Prius seems really slow. :biggrin:
 
#35
PV4EV said:
... I've often read that the energy consumed in manufacturing a car is as much as ten times the total fuel energy it will use in its entire lifetime.
Click to expand...
According to THIS post in Google Answers, it's the other way around: The energy cost of manufacturing the average car is about one-tenth the energy it takes to run the car for its lifetime. Of course, an EV is much more efficient, so it will use even less energy to operate, compared with manufacturing energy.

Caveat: I have no idea if the information in the link is correct. And manufacturing energy will vary a great deal between car models, as does FE.
 
#36
daniel said:
According to THIS post in Google Answers, it's the other way around: The energy cost of manufacturing the average car is about one-tenth the energy it takes to run the car for its lifetime. Of course, an EV is much more efficient, so it will use even less energy to operate, compared with manufacturing energy.

Caveat: I have no idea if the information in the link is correct. And manufacturing energy will vary a great deal between car models, as does FE.
Click to expand...

I have a 93 Chevy truck I have owned since new. 210,000 miles. 16 miles per gallon, thats 13,125 gallons, @ $4 per gallon thats $52,500 for fuel. Thats 2X what I spent to buy the truck originally!
 
#37
Lloyd said:
I have a 93 Chevy truck I have owned since new. 210,000 miles. 16 miles per gallon, thats 13,125 gallons, @ $4 per gallon thats $52,500 for fuel. Thats 2X what I spent to buy the truck originally!
Click to expand...

Yeah I always point to cost when people talk about the amount of power involved in producing something. It doesn't take much power to produce something that costs $2. It can't or it wouldn't cost $2. Being that I work in manufacturing it comes up a decent amount.
 
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