Letter To Elon Musk Regarding P85D Horsepower – Discussion Thread

[Krugerrand]

It sounds like the Danish group was discussing with Tesla primarily whether or not there was a change in their firmware versions that caused a reduction in their 0-60 times. I wanted to send a pretty broad letter, that many people would feel comfortable signing.

Firmware that everyone in the world gets. So if Tesla is investigating P85D's for the Danish group, they are investigating it for you and everyone else. Your letter, even with the broader approach, is then redundant and unlikely to get separate attention. I'd think a better approach is to see what plays out via the Danish group (the result/solution that would likely be applied to all) and then if a specific aspect is left to be resolved concerning the P85D, then rewrite a letter with that specific aspect in mind.

 

[Law&Disorder]

I think the letter strikes the correct tone. Given the divergence of opinions expressed here, you've done an admirable job drafting something that most P85D owners would feel comfortable signing. Thank you.

 

[Theo]

Andy,

Whoever reads the letter first (that might not be Elon) would immediately open the order page and check what it says. They wouldn't see 691hp. They would assume you misunderstood things. That person might even be an engineer who knows you can't add up front and rear horsepower. I suggest adding 691hp screenshot from the order page to the letter, next to the text. Then also include footnote links to dynamometer results. Inside the text include reference numbers to the footnotes. There is too much text and too little data. Not the type of letter you want to send to an engineer. Generally speaking long letters are not a good idea regardless the subject.

 

[Andyw2100]

Firmware that everyone in the world gets. So if Tesla is investigating P85D's for the Danish group, they are investigating it for you and everyone else. Your letter, even with the broader approach, is then redundant and unlikely to get separate attention. I'd think a better approach is to see what plays out via the Danish group (the result/solution that would likely be applied to all) and then if a specific aspect is left to be resolved concerning the P85D, then rewrite a letter with that specific aspect in mind.

I'm pretty sure firmware varies by region, country, etc. For example, my firmware is in English, and I bet theirs is not.

No one in the US is suggesting that a firmware update slowed their cars down, but that is what the Danes are suggesting.

Also one of their greatest concerns, and one that their most recent post says nothing about Tesla addressing, is the fact that 1 foot roll out is not in any way standard in Denmark. That's not a point that is relevant for the majority of people that will be able to sign the letter I wrote.

The main issue the signers of this letter want to make sure Tesla is going to take action on is the missing horsepower. That seemed more a secondary issue for the Danes.

 

[Larry93428]

Theo is correct. Although you should not change your letter once others have signed it, it is way too long.
The first paragraph needs to go. The others should be trimmed. These are busy people you are interrupting.
~Larry

 

[Andyw2100]

Andy,

Whoever reads the letter first (that might not be Elon) would immediately open the order page and check what it says. They wouldn't see 691hp. They would assume you misunderstood things. That person might even be an engineer who knows you can't add up front and rear horsepower. I suggest adding 691hp screenshot from the order page to the letter, next to the text. Then also include footnote links to dynamometer results. Inside the text include reference numbers to the footnotes. There is too much text and too little data. Not the type of letter you want to send to an engineer. Generally speaking long letters are not a good idea regardless the subject.

I appreciate your input.

I think it is pretty well understood that the P85D was marketed as making 691 horsepower. I do mention the articles. I would hope that a letter that comes with 50 or 100 or 150 signatures would not be dismissed very easily.

Also it is pretty clear that Tesla already knows about this issue, as there has been "radio silence" from all customer facing departments when anyone asks about it. If you read through the threads you will see that people have written to Tesla ([email protected]) asking about the issue, and they hear nothing back, even though every other time they've written to that address about any other issue they have received replies.

I really don't think we need to worry about whomever opens this letter just thinking I misunderstood because they look at the website as it looks today.

As for the length of the letter, I agree that it is long. It could have been longer. It would have been hard to have it be any shorter, and still have it convey everything I thought needed to be conveyed. It could have been a lot shorter if I was only trying to express my own thoughts, but that's not what I was trying to do. I have to think that when a three page letter arrives with a good number of owners' signatures, along with VIN numbers, Tesla will take the time to read it.

 

[Krugerrand]

I'm pretty sure firmware varies by region, country, etc. For example, my firmware is in English, and I bet theirs is not.

The guts isn't different...that which makes the car what it is. There are people on this side of the pond also concerned about the 0-60 time. (Example: wk057 and his Consumer Reports comment from today.)

The main issue the signers of this letter want to make sure Tesla is going to take action on is the missing horsepower. That seemed more a secondary issue for the Danes.

Secondary or not, it's all part of the performance picture and wanting a solution/free upgrade/whathaveyou.

But, okay, points taken. I still think it'll be seen as redundant and 'already handled/being handled'.

 

[Andyw2100]

The guts isn't different...that which makes the car what it is. There are people on this side of the pond also concerned about the 0-60 time. (Example: wk057 and his Consumer Reports comment from today.)



Secondary or not, it's all part of the performance picture and wanting a solution/free upgrade/whathaveyou.

But, okay, points taken. I still think it'll be seen as redundant and 'already handled/being handled'.

The people on this side of the pond concerned about the 0-60 time don't think it was increased at some point inadvertently via a firmware update. That's a crucial difference.

As for the guts of the software being the same, I agree they are probably SUPPOSED to be mainly the same (although I know there are charging differences, etc.), but presumably this would be some sort of bug that they are looking for. It's certainly possible for a bug to be introduced into one version of software, and not another.

You may be right with respect to it being seen as redundant, though I hope it isn't. Obviously I wouldn't be taking the time to do this if I felt that way too.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

Yawn! These guys are whining again -- really?
Do Corvette owners complain about their massive drive train losses or getting that HP only at Peak RPM's. This is disgusting. I smell a legal agenda - this is rotten.

Sell the car to me if its so bad and go buy the glorified VW.... Really - Waaaahhhhh - one thing I HATE about this car is the "entitlement" that a few owners feel they are owed - I almost didn't get the Tesla, because i was afraid to be associated with "those" people... damn it came true... Let me go wash my hands -- icky - No this one deserves a full shower... I gotta go take a shower and figure out how to disassociate with being on the same blog... This might even require antibiotics.. at least ten days of Cipro to get this off me. How do I give this thread a thumbs down...

 

[sorka]

That person might even be an engineer who knows you can't add up front and rear horsepower.

Then they would understand wrong as you obviously do.

Edit: Sorry. I read that wrong and realized that's not what you meant

 

[Andyw2100]

Yawn! These guys are whining again -- really?
Do Corvette owners complain about their massive drive train losses or getting that HP only at Peak RPM's. This is disgusting. I smell a legal agenda - this is rotten.

Sell the car to me if its so bad and go buy the glorified VW.... Really - Waaaahhhhh - one thing I HATE about this car is the "entitlement" that a few owners feel they are owed - I almost didn't get the Tesla, because i was afraid to be associated with "those" people... damn it came true... Let me go wash my hands -- icky - No this one deserves a full shower... I gotta go take a shower and figure out how to disassociate with being on the same blog... This might even require antibiotics.. at least ten days of Cipro to get this off me. How do I give this thread a thumbs down...

Did you even take the time to read the letter?

We're hoping to help Tesla prevent any sort of legal action.

This isn't about entitlement. It's about getting what we paid for. When you go buy your ten days worth of Cipro, would you think everything was just fine if you received only eight days worth?

 

[sorka]

Sell the car to me if its so bad and go buy the glorified VW.... Really - Waaaahhhhh - one thing I HATE about this car is the "entitlement" that a few owners feel they are owed

I have a few bridges I'd like to sell because clearly you don't expect to get what you pay for.

 

[Theo]

I think it is pretty well understood that the P85D was marketed as making 691 horsepower.

I wouldn't bet on that. I think more than half of Tesla employees wouldn't know about it. You are expecting people to know a small detail that existed on a web page half a year ago. It is more likely they will ignore what you say and check the current page for themselves. You don't know who will read the letter first. You want to make things as clear as possible.

Also part of the idea with adding a screenshot of 691hp was to emphasize the message "this is what you advertised". The 691hp statement was on the order page. That is your main argument. To me it looks like you are talking about everything except this important piece of information. If there is a photo accompanying a text, it creates a much stronger message. A photo is also much easier to understand. After reading half of your letter somebody might not actually understand what you are talking about. By screenshot I don't mean the whole order page. Just the box that says P85D and the specs under it.

I think you could also remove the section that says other media reported this and Tesla didn't correct them. That distracts from the discussion. The person reading it (again this might not be Elon) might have experience with the media and might be thinking it doesn't work like that. If you were next to the recipient of the letter as they read it and the person turned to you and said: "We can't correct all the things media says. If media reported something incorrectly and you believed them that's unfortunate but media reports a lot of things incorrectly." Of course that would be a misunderstanding of what you said but the more you distract from the main discussion the more it is likely to me misunderstood. Without that photo I wouldn't be surprised if the secretary passes that letter to a customer support staff and says, "this customer read an incorrect article in the media and is complaining about the numbers in the article. Say we are sorry he was misinformed by the media".

 

[scottf200]

Did you even take the time to read the letter?
We're hoping to help Tesla prevent any sort of legal action.
This isn't about entitlement. It's about getting what we paid for. When you go buy your ten days worth of Cipro, would you think everything was just fine if you received only eight days worth?

You guys should just sue, waste Tesla's time, money, and resources, then get Tesla to buy back your cars, ban you from buying a Tesla ever again. Then take your money and buy a Audi RS7.

Come up with better analogies for goodness sakes. You guys are ludicrous with your get 10 eggs when bought 12 or other sesame street analogies. Seriously those comparisons make you guys look loony.

Imagine if one of you guys get this in some minor media coverage. I'm sure there will be an outpouring of sympathy from the public and media. The horse has left the barn on this topic.

 

[Andyw2100]

I wouldn't bet on that. I think more than half of Tesla employees wouldn't know about it. You are expecting people to know a small detail that existed on a web page half a year ago. It is more likely they will ignore what you say and check the current page for themselves. You don't know who will read the letter first. You want to make things as clear as possible.

Also part of the idea with adding a screenshot of 691hp was to emphasize the message "this is what you advertised". The 691hp statement was on the order page. That is your main argument. To me it looks like you are talking about everything except this important piece of information. If there is a photo accompanying a text, it creates a much stronger message. A photo is also much easier to understand. After reading half of your letter somebody might not actually understand what you are talking about. By screenshot I don't mean the whole order page. Just the box that says P85D and the specs under it.

I think you could also remove the section that says other media reported this and Tesla didn't correct them. That distracts from the discussion. The person reading it (again this might not be Elon) might have experience with the media and might be thinking it doesn't work like that. If you were next to the recipient of the letter as they read it and the person turned to you and said: "We can't correct all the things media says. If media reported something incorrectly and you believed them that's unfortunate but media reports a lot of things incorrectly." Of course that would be a misunderstanding of what you said but the more you distract from the main discussion the more it is likely to me misunderstood. Without that photo I wouldn't be surprised if the secretary passes that letter to a customer support staff and says, "this customer read an incorrect article in the media and is complaining about the numbers in the article. Say we are sorry he was misinformed by the media".

I understand what you are saying. I just happen to disagree.

In my opinion providing a ten-month old screen shot would change the entire tone of the letter, and would seem to be rubbing Tesla's noses in it. They might incorrectly infer that the letter was hinting at legal action, as someone else posting in this thread already accused me of doing, which is the last thing that I want. I was not going for an adversarial tone at all. Providing a picture as proof of "this is what you did" can't come off as anything but adversarial.

Also I am writing the letter to Elon Musk. I understand that he may not be the first to read it, but I can't write it that way. It would be insulting to Mr. Musk to show him proof of what was on the Tesla website.

 

[sorka]

I wouldn't bet on that. I think more than half of Tesla employees wouldn't know about it. You are expecting people to know a small detail that existed on a web page half a year ago. It is more likely they will ignore what you say and check the current page for themselves. You don't know who will read the letter first. You want to make things as clear as possible.

Also part of the idea with adding a screenshot of 691hp was to emphasize the message "this is what you advertised". The 691hp statement was on the order page. That is your main argument. To me it looks like you are talking about everything except this important piece of information. If there is a photo accompanying a text, it creates a much stronger message. A photo is also much easier to understand. After reading half of your letter somebody might not actually understand what you are talking about. By screenshot I don't mean the whole order page. Just the box that says P85D and the specs under it.

I think you could also remove the section that says other media reported this and Tesla didn't correct them. That distracts from the discussion. The person reading it (again this might not be Elon) might have experience with the media and might be thinking it doesn't work like that. If you were next to the recipient of the letter as they read it and the person turned to you and said: "We can't correct all the things media says. If media reported something incorrectly and you believed them that's unfortunate but media reports a lot of things incorrectly." Of course that would be a misunderstanding of what you said but the more you distract from the main discussion the more it is likely to me misunderstood. Without that photo I wouldn't be surprised if the secretary passes that letter to a customer support staff and says, "this customer read an incorrect article in the media and is complaining about the numbers in the article. Say we are sorry he was misinformed by the media".

I agree maybe snippet showing the power rating before it was taken down might be good.

When Tesla took down the power rating off their site, they should have informed all publications that were now publishing the incorrect number.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

Wow my inbox is flooding with thank you's -- I'm sure I'll get edited out, but I don't need 2/10th of a second or have to drive at ILLEGAL road speeds to enjoy this car.

The Media reported it -- damn that is a reliable source!

Did you test drive the car? I got way more than I expected and love this car. It blows away everything I have ever owned. As a former sport bike racer than is nothing better you can buy... sounds like people are pissed about the rapid upgrade path making their cars less desirable. Welcome to rapid tech integration.

 

[Andyw2100]

Wow my inbox is flooding with thank you's -- I'm sure I'll get edited out, but I don't need 2/10th of a second or have to drive at ILLEGAL road speeds to enjoy this car.

The Media reported it -- damn that is a reliable source!

Did you test drive the car? I got way more than I expected and love this car. It blows away everything I have ever owned. As a former sport bike racer than is nothing better you can buy... sounds like people are pissed about the rapid upgrade path making their cars less desirable. Welcome to rapid tech integration.

There's really no point in arguing with you about this. You're perfectly happy with the car. I didn't write the letter for you.

Many people, including me, are also very happy with the car, but feel that we should get what was advertised.

As for your assertion that we are "pissed about the rapid upgrade path" we were upset about the lack of horsepower months before the Ludicrous Mode upgrade was announced.

 

[P85_DA]

Lol this thread is getting funnier even without my moderator deleted posts. I'm glad there are sensible people here looking at this for what it is ...an extortion letter ..I can't wait too laugh when Tesla completely dismisses you guys ...they spent the money for the R&D for ludicrous pay for it if you want ...or as others have suggested sell your car ..

 

[omarsultan]

Without wading into the justification for the letter and looking only at the effectiveness of the communications, a couple of comments:

The P85D was marketed as making 691 horsepower. It doesn’t. We believe, based on various testing methods and tools including dynamometer testing and testing with professional performance data loggers that the maximum energy output is 415 KW, which results in a maximum horsepower of 557 before any drivetrain losses on a fully charged battery. Even without factoring in drive train loss, this is almost 20% less than the advertised horsepower.

Considering you are addressing this to someone with an engineering bent and empirically driven, this is kinda weak. To refute an empirical data point, you need to either show flaws in the test methodology or at least offer counter data. Essentially saying "we think its 415kW/557hp" without any backup is not compelling. I am sure Elon has great faith in his engineers and likely has at least some idea where the 691hp came from, so to if you are going to question them and the power number, you should at least offer up your data and the methdology.

The missing horsepower is quite noticeable at highway passing speeds. For example, from 70-90 mph, the P85D should perform like a car with a power to weight ratio of one HP for every seven pounds. Instead it performs like a car with one HP for every nine pounds. The result of this is that from 70-90 mph the P85D is easily outperformed by an Audi RS7 with a power to weight ratio of only one HP for every eight pounds.

Again, you are arguing about how you think the car should feel without any empirical backup. Someone could easily argue the P85D does not feel as fast because it lacks all the sensory cues that a traditional ICE offers (engine noise, exhaust, etc) that your brain has been trained to recognize as meaning you are going really fast. Being able to show P85D times against a comparable car would strengthen this argument...or undermine it.

The 691 HP figure appeared on the Tesla Motors website from October 9, 2014 the date of the D launch until the middle of May, 2015. Dozens of articles on the P85D quoted this figure. Tesla did not correct these stories. Tesla allowed the world, and more importantly Tesla customers to believe the P85D would make 691 HP.

I would tread lightly as you are implying fraud on the part of Tesla. IMO really comes down to whether it is legit or at least defensible to add the output of the front and rear motors. I know of no such precedent with another automobile, so I thought about looking at locomotives. After some Googling it seems in the locomotive world, you can add the output of each locomotive to calculate total tractive power, but I am not sure if that's true or if the logic is applicable to this scenario.