Letter To Elon Musk Regarding P85D Horsepower – Discussion Thread

[rns-e]

At least we know they have read the good parts of the Consumer Report test

 

[Andyw2100]

Andy - you should address the letter to the incompetent dutch translator, not Elon. It is obviously not Tesla or Elons fault that only a few very intelligent users on this forum understands what they are saying and then on top of that having incompetent dutch translators translating into Danish. I found the address to make it easier for you.

Att.: Incompetent Dutch Translators Inc.
c/o Tesla Motors København
Bredgade 35
1260 København
Danmark

I don't often actually laugh out loud while reading posts, but when I got to the first line of the address, this one caused me to! Hilarious!

 

[Alipapa]

It's un-surprising that you ignore the facts to fit your viewpoint. CR doesn't do the roll out, they specifically mention this. Several other automotive publications have gotten the advertised specs, and one has gotten better.

This is miserable.

First People said the P85D in the Auto Express video had a lousy launch, and that lead to a defeat to the Porsche Panamera Turbo S. (In fact the Porsche did 0-60 in 3.4 sec in the video, 0.2 sec faster than the time listed on official web site.)

Now some say the way Consumer Report record 0-60 is not correct by not doing roll-out.

Come on guys, did Porsche use the BS roll-out to make their 0-60 time look better? Should CR test 5-60 from now on?

Aren't you guys proud to own a Tesla because it is different from others? Or just because we can all make up 691 Fan Boy horse power?

 

[Andyw2100]

At least we know they have read the good parts of the Consumer Report test

View attachment 92030

Tesla didn't tweet this part:

"The larger battery also comes with more powerful motors. While the two motors in the all-wheel-drive 70-kWh version put out a combined 328 hp, our rear-wheel-drive 85-kWh version makes 373 hp. The all-wheel-drive 85 kWh Model S produces 417 hp, while the top-of-the-line Model P85D puts out 691 hp through two motors, one each at the front and rear."

 

[sorka]

I think I understand why Tesla uses the term "hp motor power" and what it means.

How do you know this is what they meant? Why doesn't it mean power at the motor rather than the battery or the wheels? Please cite a reference where Tesla has defined this term.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, I have straight face when I understand what motor power means.

Or maybe you can answer the question?

 

[JohnSnowNW]

This is miserable.

First People said the P85D in the Auto Express video had a lousy launch, and that lead to a defeat to the Porsche Panamera Turbo S. (In fact the Porsche did 0-60 in 3.4 sec in the video, 0.2 sec faster than the time listed on official web site.)

Now some say the way Consumer Report record 0-60 is not correct by not doing roll-out.

Come on guys, did Porsche use the BS roll-out to make their 0-60 time look better? Should CR test 5-60 from now on?

Aren't you guys proud to own a Tesla because it is different from others? Or just because we can all make up 691 Fan Boy horse power?

Again, the 1-foot roll out is an industry standard. You can disagree with it, but using numbers that exclude the 1-foot roll out as evidence that the vehicle doesn't meet performance specs is disingenuous at best, or willfully ignorant at worst.

 

[rns-e]

Again, the 1-foot roll out is an industry standard. You can disagree with it, but using numbers that exclude the 1-foot roll out as evidence that the vehicle doesn't meet performance specs is disingenuous at best, or willfully ignorant at worst.

here we go again, now it is a industry standard again, you may want to check some of the many other posts as they tend to only describe it as a industry standard when it support what they are saying. But following what you are claiming, then Edmunds, CR, all European manufactures selling in the US is not following the industry standard, even Tesla is only following the industry standard using 1 foot roll out for the P85D and maybe the P90D, whereas the other models in the line up is without 1 foot roll out

At least they all agree on the standard so we as consumers know what they are claiming is true and can be called willfully ignorant by our fellow Tesla owners

 

[JohnSnowNW]

here we go again, now it is a industry standard again, you may want to check some of the many other posts as they tend to only describe it as a industry standard when it support what they are saying. But following what you are claiming, then Edmunds, CR, all European manufactures selling in the US is not following the industry standard, even Tesla is only following the industry standard using 1 foot roll out for the P85D and maybe the P90D, whereas the other models in the line up is without 1 foot roll out

At least they all agree on the standard so we as consumers know what they are claiming is true and can be called willfully ignorant by our fellow Tesla owners

Yes, I agree this is cyclical. You guys keep saying one thing to support your view, while ignoring another. The 1-foot roll out is a standard measure of performance, that not all publications are following.

This has obviously caused confusion, but your confusion has no bearing on whether the vehicle meets advertised specifications. And again, comparing two different measuring standards, then using your preferred one against Tesla, especially when attempting to discredit them, is disingenuous.

I suggest you all stick to the hp argument, because the 0-60 isn't objectively debatable.

 

[rns-e]

Yes, I agree this is cyclical. You guys keep saying one thing to support your view, while ignoring another. The 1-foot roll out is a standard measure of performance, that not all publications are following.

This has obviously caused confusion, but your confusion has no bearing on whether the vehicle meets advertised specifications. And again, comparing two different measuring standards, then using your preferred one against Tesla, especially when attempting to discredit them, is disingenuous.

I suggest you all stick to the hp argument, because the 0-60 isn't objectively debatable.

Thank you, so now I am (we are) willfully ignorant and disingenuous. So what words would you use to describe Teslas use of 1 foot roll out on the P85D and not on all the other models in the lineup for the customers to compare? Would you choose the word honest?

 

[qwertzy]

First People said the P85D in the Auto Express video had a lousy launch, and that lead to a defeat to the Porsche Panamera Turbo S. (In fact the Porsche did 0-60 in 3.4 sec in the video, 0.2 sec faster than the time listed on official web site.)

The Porsche Panamera Turbo S got 3.4 with rollout and brake torquing. The Brake torquing which was used on an electric Tesla P85D only delayed the launch, creating an error sound, that the two pedals are pressed. The proper way to launch a Tesla, is one foot only and with a good stomp.

 

[smac]

Thank you, so now I am (we are) willfully ignorant and disingenuous. So what words would you use to describe Teslas use of 1 foot roll out on the P85D and not on all the other models in the lineup for the customers to compare? Would you choose the word honest?

This has been covered many times before by those more intelligent than us....

Ultimately Tesla are allowed to change the yardstick at a whim, because it's the right thing to do to enable their long term goals of global EV uptake. They are a charitable organisation, not a business, and we should stop being such capitalist pedants.

Simples really.

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Thank you, so now I am (we are) willfully ignorant and disingenuous. So what words would you use to describe Teslas use of 1 foot roll out on the P85D and not on all the other models in the lineup for the customers to compare? Would you choose the word honest?

Performance models are often advertised differently than standard models. For instance, I'm not seeing a lot of 1/4 mile times posted for the Dodge Grand Caravan, but there they are for the Charger Hellcat. The Chevy Corvette Stingray is being touted at 3.7 seconds (0-60) but Edmunds quotes 4.0 seconds...obviously Chevy is using the 1 foot roll out.

It's difficult to compare other manufacturers base models with their performance ones, since many don't even list 0-60 times for the base versions.

So, yes, I would say Tesla is being as honest as other manufacturers when quoting performance specs.

 

[sorka]

Performance models are often advertised differently than standard models. For instance, I'm not seeing a lot of 1/4 mile times posted for the Dodge Grand Caravan, but there they are for the Charger Hellcat. The Chevy Corvette Stingray is being touted at 3.7 seconds (0-60) but Edmunds quotes 4.0 seconds...obviously Chevy is using the 1 foot roll out.

It's difficult to compare other manufacturers base models with their performance ones, since many don't even list 0-60 times for the base versions.

So, yes, I would say Tesla is being as honest as other manufacturers when quoting performance specs.

Omitting a performance number altogether is quite different than listing that metric for two different vehicles and applying different standards to each. I've been mostly quite on the 0-60 front because I always assumed the P85D was with the 1 ft rollout and didn't compare it to the non performance models which is why I feel I got what I paid for on that front despite my strong feelings to the contrary on peak power and passing speed.

 

[rns-e]

This has been covered many times before by those more intelligent than us....

Ultimately Tesla are allowed to change the yardstick at a whim, because it's the right thing to do to enable their long term goals of global EV uptake. They are a charitable organisation, not a business, and we should stop being such capitalist pedants.

Simples really.

You kinda get that feeling, right

Performance models are often advertised differently than standard models. For instance, I'm not seeing a lot of 1/4 mile times posted for the Dodge Grand Caravan, but there they are for the Charger Hellcat. The Chevy Corvette Stingray is being touted at 3.7 seconds (0-60) but Edmunds quotes 4.0 seconds...obviously Chevy is using the 1 foot roll out.

It's difficult to compare other manufacturers base models with their performance ones, since many don't even list 0-60 times for the base versions.

So, yes, I would say Tesla is being as honest as other manufacturers when quoting performance specs.

That would be the most obvious comparison, comparing the 85D to a Dodge Grand Caravan and the difference between the P85D and the 85D as the difference between the Hellcat and the Dodge Grand Caravan.

The only thing making the P85D the performance car over the 85D is the faulty numbers Tesla puts out. 691hp vs 417hp and the 3.1s vs 4.2s (which is at best 3.5s vs 4.2s).

Please show me the stock Dodge Grand Caravan that is in every other way identical to the Hellcat and is within 1s 0-60 mph. Or I give you a chance, please find the equivalent MB E class/AMG or BMW 5series/M and show me that they use the same way to quote performance for the same cars with different power options.

 

[Gizmotoy]

The only thing making the P85D the performance car over the 85D is the faulty numbers Tesla puts out. 691hp vs 417hp and the 3.1s vs 4.2s (which is at best 3.5s vs 4.2s).

This really seems like the crux of the matter to me. Tesla wanted to tout some numbers. Over time it was discovered the numbers were inaccurate (HP) or misleading (0-60). They wouldn't be the first manufacturer to have done it, but I do find it disappointing.

Would it really have been that bad to say the P85D was 3.1s and the 85D was 3.9s to keep everything consistent? Would 691 total motor hp, 560 peak hp been that bad to advertise? If anything, 3.1s with 560hp is more impressive to me, not less.

 

[AmpedRealtor]

I think anyone that signs is keen on ruining a great company. Tesla is not a perfect company but it is a great company. Anyone can make mistakes.

And how would the company know it made a mistake if someone - in this case a group of concerned owners - didn't bring it to Tesla's attention? That's what folks here are doing, no?

 

[JohnSnowNW]

You kinda get that feeling, right



That would be the most obvious comparison, comparing the 85D to a Dodge Grand Caravan and the difference between the P85D and the 85D as the difference between the Hellcat and the Dodge Grand Caravan.

The only thing making the P85D the performance car over the 85D is the faulty numbers Tesla puts out. 691hp vs 417hp and the 3.1s vs 4.2s (which is at best 3.5s vs 4.2s).

Please show me the stock Dodge Grand Caravan that is in every other way identical to the Hellcat and is within 1s 0-60 mph. Or I give you a chance, please find the equivalent MB E class/AMG or BMW 5series/M and show me that they use the same way to quote performance for the same cars with different power options.

It wasn't supposed to be directly comparable, I was using an extreme example. However, I could have just as easily used the other Charger models as an example.

I realize you're trying to nitpick because you can't refute my position outright, but come on.

 

[rns-e]

It wasn't supposed to be directly comparable, I was using an extreme example. However, I could have just as easily used the other Charger models as an example.

I realize you're trying to nitpick because you can't refute my position outright, but come on.

Not nitpicking, I can honestly say that I can not find any comparable models from any manufactures that use roll out on one engine model and not roll out on another engine model in the same range, i.e. Charger. What amazes me is that you apparently think that is ok. The only car company I know (now) doing it is Tesla. But again, apparently it is the standard according to you. But I can tell you, that not one European car company does that.

But comparable models in the Charger range would be the SRT 392 and the SRT Hellcat, right? I don't know the numbers for those, but maybe you can help with the numbers? And weather the one is without roll out and the other with roll out?

I can not find any 0-60 numbers on the Charger home page: Dodge Charger Models | Detailed Comparison Chart

Edit: According to Car and Driver the SRT 392 and the Hellcat would be the exact comparable models to the 85D and P85D. SRT 392 is accroding to C/D 4.2s and Hellcat 3.4s 0-60, now we just need to find the official claims from Dodge to see if they cook the numbers the same way as Tesla does, which you say they do - this is actually turning in to nitpicking, but claims like that kinda warrants that.

Edit: No, can't find any official Dodge 0-60 mph claims for the SRT 392 and the Hellcat

 

[JohnSnowNW]

Edit: According to Car and Driver the SRT 392 and the Hellcat would be the exact comparable models to the 85D and P85D. SRT 392 is accroding to C/D 4.2s and Hellcat 3.4s 0-60, now we just need to find the official claims from Dodge to see if they cook the numbers the same way as Tesla does, which you say they do - this is actually turning in to nitpicking, but claims like that kinda warrants that

See, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about, you can't have a rational conversation with someone who continues to ignore that 1-foot roll out is a standard. In your view, they are "cooking the numbers."

I don't even like the comparison of the SRT 392 and 85D because the SRT is a performance model, just not the top performance model. The 85D has good performance, but it's not a "performance" model. Dodge is absolutely quoting a 1-foot roll out with those numbers, as I said, it's common practice here. Edmunds, which doesn't use 1-foot roll out, says the Hellcat does 0-60 in 4.1. Dodge doesn't list official 0-60, but they do list a quarter mile of 11.0 seconds...which I have yet to see a publication verify with their testing. So, there you go.

 

[brianman]

This has been covered many times before by those more intelligent than us....

Ultimately Tesla are allowed to change the yardstick at a whim, because it's the right thing to do to enable their long term goals of global EV uptake. They are a charitable organisation, not a business, and we should stop being such capitalist pedants.

Simples really.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. When putting two models side by side on the specs page, they should use the same measuring sticks (for EPA range, for horsepower, etc). Simple indeed.

- - - Updated - - -

This really seems like the crux of the matter to me. Tesla wanted to tout some numbers. Over time it was discovered the numbers were inaccurate (HP) or misleading (0-60). They wouldn't be the first manufacturer to have done it, but I do find it disappointing.

Would it really have been that bad to say the P85D was 3.1s and the 85D was 3.9s to keep everything consistent? Would 691 total motor hp, 560 peak hp been that bad to advertise? If anything, 3.1s with 560hp is more impressive to me, not less.

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