Lightning GT

[Finkenbusch]

True, some benefits will disappear, but others will come into being.

The paradigm change from petrol driven to electric motorized car will topple whole industries - about 10 % of US one at least - no more exhaust fitters, service stations, motor suppliers, gear box makers, transmission metallurgist and yes - traditional battery producers and their megachains will go the way of the gaslight - besides the wars (and mercenaries in the duty of the good force) over petrol, their perpetrators and many winners and the whole rat tail they drag after them - the list is as long as the debtors of Enron.

9/10 of US congress (and not just there) will have to make place for a new world - I hope Obama will help this development - at least not hinder

Part suppliers will have broader selection of parts suitable for EVs

There will 90 % of todays car parts and parts producer, suppliers, subcontractors, dealer close doors and go the way of the Edsel - there are no more then 10 % of parts in a ev car compared to a conventional car

History remembers only the first.

That is simply not the fact - very often the commercial successful is the only one remembered and the true inventor forgotten.

 

[WarpedOne]

Your view is way to simplistic. There will be no revolution, businesses will adapt. Sure some companies will disappear, but new will appear. It is happening all the time already.

It will take at least 10 years until gas powered cars start to loose primacy in the market and still there will be nich markets where gas vehicles will be better suited then battery powered ones (long range trucks, ...).

The world is way more complex than we tend to belive.

 

[Finkenbusch]

Thats at the end of the food chain good for the vendors of pizza ovens - your right :

Your view is way to simplistic. There will be no revolution, businesses will adapt.
The world is way more complex than we tend to belive.

How true.
Most tectonical shifts in history are not announced in Newsweek or on Fox in advance.

Guess - slow evolution and market adaptation often cannot easily cope in speed.

As soon as Iran is hit by the first missile, the street of Hormuz, controlling the better part of all worldwide available crude oil (17 million barrel/daily), will be mined and be closed for shipping within minutes.
The barrel will hit 500$ initial and then rise to 1.000$.

What do you need then more?
medicine (made out of oil) or a trip with a gas driven car to your Wal Mart.

More.

Some industries go and some come when products change - true.

If all drive e cars and they have 90% less (mechanical) technical parts then a petrol car then (logically) 90% of interior content marches with the producers the way of the Studebaker.

10% new come on board 90% leave - probably

Furthermore a elecric car need to be serviced (if ever) all 30.000 miles,
simply when he stops running (or not bcs the brakes are dead) or the tires are flat.

Why a regular inspection when nothing is to be inspected today crammed under every cars hood?
So most of the nowadays garage repairs-hops can install a pizza oven.

Thats at the end of the food chain good for the vendors of pizza ovens - your right

 

[vfx]

"It's like expecting existing gas stations to survive by serving only exotic sports cars."

Indeed that may be their future.


Many Eco activists insist to EV makers to build 100 mile cars. They say that," I don't need any more for my car (or second car)."

Martin says a 500 mile car is the answer. It's pretty much as far as you can (should) drive in a day on a road trip.

I suspect both are right -at least until the cost for producing them becomes similar enough that all cars go big on miles per charge.

 

[malcolm]

Think of a simple soup...

Ah now I understand your confusion.

Even if we take a 380 Volt supply at 200 Amps(?) that only gives 76kW. The Tesla's battery stores 53kWh so even if you could make one from Altairnanos this power supply could only charge it in 53/76 = 0.7 hrs (or about 42 minutes). A more powerful supply would be a) more dangerous to use - especially in the wet and b) more costly to use.

Fine for the Germans - assuming that their 380 Volt supplies have 200 Amp hours of spare capacity and that Altairnano EVER get around to marketing their technology at affordable prices (Sadly - there seems little progress).

The problem with higher power density batteries is that they suffer from reduced energy density so that range is reduced. Fine for a REEV - but then there's even less point to ultra-fast recharge since that is what the on-board ICE-powered generator is for.

 

[Cobos]

Finkenbusch: Your math also has a critical flaw. Yes the pizza place has a 400V hookup with a decent amperage to back it up. And the reason it has that is because it's USING that hookup for it's pizza ovens which is sort of essential if you are in business of selling pizzas.

The only place with plenty of extra power for fastcharging which is available most of the time is concert venues as their lighting systems pull insane amounts of power and are rarely used during daytime. The other technical problem is that most of these installations are indoor installation not meant to deal with water/rain. Keep in mind the rule of thumb is for every 1000V you get power will arc about 1cm of air.

As malcolm mentioned the problem with fastcharging is that it's a market with NO growth potential for as soon as batteries are good enough you don't need them any longer. At the same time it needs a critical mass of number of EVs on the road which is also a matter of time. What there might be a market for is something around PBP's business plan. Slowish charging available mostly everywhere, with 230V - 400V with 10-40A which is faster than home charging and an option for those without their own garages. For a fee per month or per use this might be something which is economically viable with or without the battery lease thrown into this...

Cobos

 

[Finkenbusch]

Finkenbusch: Your math also has a critical flaw. Yes the pizza place has a 400V hookup with a decent amperage to back it up. And the reason it has that is because it's USING that hookup for it's pizza ovens which is sort of essential if you are in business of selling pizzas.

Not only pizza baker and noodle shops - you overlook that every petrol station pumps petrol with the help of a motor using 380V hookup, washes your car, every elevator and public garage doors, metros and escalator are using it, as well as many streetlights and lightning for public and parking places could not run without high voltage outside on many places use high voltage.

High voltage in public places is for good safety reasons mostly hidden from open view.

Look for the many warning signs on the street
and you shall see...

I still stay by my opinion that Dior or Hermes shop will draw the proper folks - the one who can afford a Tesla - if a free reload is offered.
A elegant filter to avoid window shoppers'

And with (hopefully soon) many other EV vendors coming to the market also the Wal-Mart folks will finally enjoy a hookup for a few pence.

Thats how capitalism works at its best...

 

[Cobos]

There's no doubt that for high-end stores that want a green cred having quick charging stations might draw customers. But at the same time putting up 220V outlets costs a fraction of the price and might give just as much customers. After all people usually only drive a few tens of miles to a Dior shop. They only need to recharge a bit.

My point was that all these places that already have high voltage hookup don't have any available capacity. Thus you have to pull another cable for the quickcharger and then you might as well put it somewhere else. A slow-charger on the other hand might be possible with the power currently available at the location.

Cobos

 

[Finkenbusch]

Basically I agree - but you make one minor mistake.

Speaking from Europe.
380 Volt 3 phases is available everywhere (until your house) - from the three phases the high power 380V connection runs only 2 are taken of and they make the 220 Volt two phases for a household in Europe.

In the US I believe 110 Volt is the standard - that has to be transformed to 110V.

Thats what you find in your kitchen and garage.

So no "new" capable installation is necessary, the installation is here already.

Capacity may be indeed become a problem in summer when the folks run air-condition but in general EV evolution (to every Wal-Mart) will take its course.

 

[doug]

Blighty's electro-supercar 2.0 uncloaked today | The Register

 

[malcolm]

Oh dear Lord. They're going to paint the hub motors in bright colours, aren't they. Just so everyone notices.

 

[doug]

Oh dear Lord. They're going to paint the hub motors in bright colours, aren't they. Just so everyone notices.

Looks like blue LEDs to me. I think it's fine for an auto show.

 

[dpeilow]

Hmm, they are just not getting this quick charge business are they.

The Lightning is of special interest to electric-vehicle fanciers as it is one of two vehicles in the world using new lithium-titanate battery technology*. This scores over li-ion - as used in the famous Tesla Roadster, which has just gone into production - because it can be charged up within minutes rather than hours.

So unless I am mistaken, even on UK three phase, to charge the Tesla battery in 3 minutes would take 2000 Amps. The Lightning will be no different, lithium-titanate battery or not. I doubt if Tesco or any other store has that on offer.

This in the trunk, anyone?

 

[Finkenbusch]

If a supercapacitor is (slow loaded and) put inbetween the carbatteries & the grid (wether at Tesco or at home) to empty 2000 Amps in a very short time from a condensator to the battery are not unfeasable.
As capacitors main purpose in life is ultra fast up-unloading of power.

And high capacity capacitors are no future items but today in daily heavy use in many public transport systems all over Europe, and I suppose the whole world.

 

[vfx]

"bitchslap Tesla"


ha ha Tesla is the one to beat.

Tesla should address the quick charging thing officially. They have publicly commented that the Roadster could charge in an hour. I'm sure it's too late to change the 2008 car so it could actually do it at a high powered charging station (Tesco) or whatever, but I think hat they should say that they could do it and will offer that capability for the 2009 model. Nevermind that it will rarely get used by Lightening owners or Tesla owners, Tesla just can't loose the bragging rights fight.

 

[WarpedOne]

Tesla just can't loose the bragging rights fight.

Because the consequeces would be what exactly?

If they indulge into this stupid quick charging charade they will only add credit to it. They should stick to ther "charge over night" and point out the difficulties when confronted. To handle megawatts of power the major issues are cables, safety and reliability of connectors.

 

[dpeilow]

Tesla should put out an official press release, or at the very least a blog entry on their site, debunking the whole quick charge thing and put some science behind it.

They especially need to do this if they plan to go down the battery swap route with future models. Maybe they could put it out jointly with Project Better Place.

 

[Finkenbusch]

To handle megawatts of power the major issues are cables, safety and reliability of connectors.

Thats a non issue.
With that weak security concerns nobody would be allowed to fill any vehicle with a highly flammabe or explosice agent as petrol or gas in public places.

Its a matter of technology only.

And that technology (bring high power outlets to the masses in tghe US like we have in most over Europe) is here today - only hindered by the lazyness of the fat & n the brink of bancrupsy waggeling US car (and other industries) industry on one side and powerful interests to keep the status quo as oil addicted (look in your wallet after paying at the pump)


To be on the cuttiong edge of technology was once a USA trademark - lets stick to the spirit "It can be done"

 

[Finkenbusch]

They especially need to do this if they plan to go down the battery swap route with future models. Maybe they could put it out jointly with Project Better Place.

If you look very close under the skirts and in the pants of "project better place" you find out that is a well thought and well maketet (till Olmert in Israel) scam - to lure the public with a shrewd green argument from one dependency (oil) to the next (one single monopolistic battery producer, marketeer & technology!).

Think - the proponent is a very clever SAP official - he knows ho to trick markets / investors and mislead the public.

Better go forward and confront the future with the best the US historical proven has - intelligence, cleverness, open market thinking and technical prudeness.

Leaving the oil chains behind forgood...

 

[dpeilow]

I think you are missing the point. At 415v this requires 2000 Amps. Their plan can only work with 11kV at the outlet and that requires massive re-engineering of the grid, whether in Europe or the US.


But hang on: Welcome to Lightning Car Company - The UK's Premier Electric Sports Car

Battery:

State of the art NanoSafe™ battery packs. 36kw power

OK so maybe 1300A