Lol, one day people will blame taking showers at 6pm on a grid failure

[nwdiver]

I hate to bring a pinch of reality into the conversation but you typically need your furnace the most at night time or when it’s inclement weather and cloudy, so the electricity supplying the heat pump would be from natural gas or coal fired power plants, especially in harsh climates. Bay Area or SoCal is a completely different climate than most of the country and the rest of the world. Some areas you don’t see sun or above freezing temperatures for weeks.

Wind

 

[P.S.S.]

Wind

Wind doesn’t work when it gets really cold which is why the Midwest started rolling blackouts in February 2021 during that cold snap. The only thing that was producing electricity was coal and natural gas plants. Either they freeze up or wnen it’s so cold it’s a dead calm. We just have to stick to what science actually is and not what we want science to be.

 

[nwdiver]

Wind doesn’t work when it gets really cold which is why the Midwest started rolling blackouts in February 2021 during that cold snap. The only thing that was producing electricity was coal and natural gas plants. Either they freeze up or wnen it’s so cold it’s a dead calm. We just have to stick to what science actually is and not what we want science to be.

That's why you have an inter-regional grid like SPP. If it's cold with inclement weather that's a cold front which means wind. Winterized wind turbines do fine in the cold.

Regardless a gas turbine powering a heat pump delivers more heat than gas burned in a furnace. Either way heat pumps are a win.

 

[P.S.S.]

That's why you have an inter-regional grid like SPP. If it's cold with inclement weather that's a cold front which means wind. Winterized wind turbines do fine in the cold.

Regardless a gas turbine powering a heat pump delivers more heat than gas burned in a furnace. Either way heat pumps are a win.

The rolling blackouts I was referring to was in SPP and ERCOT. An ISO can import some power but not enough to sustain those type of generation inadequacies.

 

[nwdiver]

The rolling blackouts I was referring to was in SPP and ERCOT. An ISO can import some power but not enough to sustain those type of generation inadequacies.

The blackouts with SPP were regional due to transmission constraints. Nothing that can't be solved with more robust transmission and more wind. The energy was there. Just need to harvest and send it.

 

[P.S.S.]

The blackouts with SPP were regional due to transmission constraints. Nothing that can't be solved with more robust transmission and more wind. The energy was there. Just need to harvest and send it.

That’s absolutely false. I was a resource planning engineer in SPP and when I told all these renewable energy companies to turn on their wind turbines they all said no because it could break their turbines. After that I realized the only dependable power source at this time are our traditional sources. All the renewables didn’t show up when we needed them. Where are you making this up from?

 

[nwdiver]

That’s absolutely false. I was a resource planning engineer in SPP and when I told all these renewable energy companies to turn on their wind turbines they all said no because it could break their turbines. After that I realized the only dependable power source at this time are our traditional sources. All the renewables didn’t show up when we needed them. Where are you making this up from?

My point is the wind energy was there. In the region. We need to build the additional assets to properly capture enough of it.

 

[P.S.S.]

My point is the wind energy was there. In the region. We need to build the additional assets to properly capture enough of it.

It was there but we couldn’t run it and after that I said no more and we are building natural gas units. Every renewable company that was suppose to supply power to us said no. If it’s 75F out and sunny they would provide it though.

 

[nwdiver]

It was there but we couldn’t run it and after that I said no more and we are building natural gas units. Every renewable company that was suppose to supply power to us said no. If it’s 75F out and sunny they would provide it though.

I guess we need to see how Norway does it

 

[P.S.S.]

I guess we need to see how Norway does it

A natural gas line from Russia

 

[nwdiver]

A natural gas line from Russia

They have wind that works.

Found a report from SPP. Sure looks like our wind worked too... just need more.

 

[P.S.S.]

Okay, we obviously aren’t on the same page. There is a ton of wind energy in the midwest. That was the point of discussion. The issue was it showing up when you needed it.

 

[nwdiver]

Okay, we obviously aren’t on the same page. There is a ton of wind energy in the midwest. That was the point of discussion. The issue was it showing up when you needed it.

Still reduces how much fuel is burned. That's the point. More wind, less fuel burned. More heat pumps, less fuel burned. Hard to reduce fuel burn with wind energy if you have a gas furnace. That just increases curtailment when there is wind.

 

[STS-134]

Wind doesn’t work when it gets really cold which is why the Midwest started rolling blackouts in February 2021 during that cold snap. The only thing that was producing electricity was coal and natural gas plants. Either they freeze up or wnen it’s so cold it’s a dead calm. We just have to stick to what science actually is and not what we want science to be.

Yep, and in the SF Bay Area, pretty much the only time it ever goes below freezing is when there isn't any wind. The lack of wind is why it gets that cold. If there were wind mixing the atmosphere, it wouldn't be that cold in the first place. So wind power isn't going to bail you out on cold nights because if it were windy it wouldn't be so cold.

That's why you have an inter-regional grid like SPP. If it's cold with inclement weather that's a cold front which means wind. Winterized wind turbines do fine in the cold.

That's fine but you'd better have a way to generate electricity if it's cold and not windy anywhere, or if those links all go down in a big cascading failure. We should be able to shut down all long distance transmission lines and turn every urban area into an electricity island and no one should ever lose power.

Regardless a gas turbine powering a heat pump delivers more heat than gas burned in a furnace. Either way heat pumps are a win.

Depends on the COP of the heat pump, the efficiency of the turbine, and transmission losses. An 80% efficient furnace can beat the heat pump if it's cold enough outside. A 99% efficient furnace would do even better.

 

[nwdiver]

Depends on the COP of the heat pump, the efficiency of the turbine, and transmission losses. An 80% efficient furnace can beat the heat pump if it's cold enough outside. A 99% efficient furnace would do even better.

Over the course of a year a heat pump powered by 100% natural gas generated electricity would consume less fuel than a 100% efficient gas furnace. .... and no grid in the US is 100% natural gas. Point is that any argument against electrification is mathematically absurd.

 

[STS-134]

Over the course of a year a heat pump powered by 100% natural gas generated electricity would consume less fuel than a 100% efficient gas furnace. .... and no grid in the US is 100% natural gas. Point is that any argument against electrification is mathematically absurd.

Yes but you can use both a heat pump and a natural gas furnace and run whatever is more efficient at any given time. It's called a dual fuel system.

 

[nwdiver]

Yes but you can use both a heat pump and a natural gas furnace and run whatever is more efficient at any given time. It's called a dual fuel system.

So pay a $12/mo connection fee 12 months of the year so a few cold days in the winter you save a few dollars when your heat pump COP drops to 2? Pay $144/yr to save ~$20? Meh. I can think of easier ways to save negative $124

 

[STS-134]

So pay a $12/mo connection fee 12 months of the year so a few cold days in the winter you save a few dollars when your heat pump COP drops to 2? Pay $144/yr to save ~$20? Meh. I can think of easier ways to save negative $124

First of all, it's $3-4/mo (the $10-12/mo is for electricity, not gas), and second, my water heater is currently gas, so I don't pay any minimums. But even if I did get a heat pump water heater, it would be less than $40 in charges that I'd have to "save" to make up for the minimums, and eventually, I expect CPUC to make the minimum an annual thing instead of a monthly thing to account for people switching to heat pump water heaters. Someone also pointed out that you get part or all of the minimum bill charges credited back as part of the CA climate credit portion of the bill, so...

 

[nwdiver]

First of all, it's $3-4/mo (the $10-12/mo is for electricity, not gas), and second, my water heater is currently gas, so I don't pay any minimums. But even if I did get a heat pump water heater, it would be less than $40 in charges that I'd have to "save" to make up for the minimums, and eventually, I expect CPUC to make the minimum an annual thing instead of a monthly thing to account for people switching to heat pump water heaters. Someone also pointed out that you get part or all of the minimum bill charges credited back as part of the CA climate credit portion of the bill, so...

Seems like a pretty rare arrangement. Here it's $12/mo. Some friends just bought a new house, good thing they're 100% electric 'cause it's $17/mo where they live. I've saved ~$1200 in service fees alone since I went 100% electric. Gas lines just aren't worth the hassle or cost for most people.

 

[iPlug]

So pay a $12/mo connection fee 12 months of the year so a few cold days in the winter you save a few dollars when your heat pump COP drops to 2? Pay $144/yr to save ~$20? Meh. I can think of easier ways to save negative $124

COPs have improved over the years, including at low temps.

Our few years old home central air-sourced heat pump has a COP of 2.6 at 17°F. Never gets that cold here, but beats 100% grid 50-60% efficient CCGT every time.

https://www.shareddocs.com/hvac/docs/1009/Public/06/25VNA4-02PD.pdf