Lol, one day people will blame taking showers at 6pm on a grid failure

[holeydonut]

Looks like Californian's will only be getting electric water heaters by 2030...

California moves to ban natural gas furnaces and heaters by 2030

California is committing to a plan that will make it the first U.S. state to phase out gas-fueled furnaces and water heaters in homes.

www.latimes.com

This means if a normal homeowner (edit: who has electric water heating but no solar+ESS) takes a shower at 6pm, they could be contributing to a grid failure! PG&E will advise people to only shower at noon to put less stress on the grid. In less than a decade, 12pm will be when people are advised to:
1) Charge their EV
2) Take a shower
3) Wash their Dishes
4) Cook Dinner
5) Bake Dessert
6) Watch TV
7) Run their AC
Hope everyone is working from home by 2030.

Orrrrrr someone can get solar + batteries and live normally! So to make this kind of related to this sub... please make sure everyone you talk to about energy goes out there and gets solar + batteries! Tell them the "ROI" will be that they can shower whenever they want.

BTW, the Inflation Reduction Act also has provisions to incentivize electric water heating. So hopefully the people in this sub will look into converting water heating to electric in 2023.

 

[h2ofun]

Looks like Californian's will only be getting electric water heaters by 2030...

California moves to ban natural gas furnaces and heaters by 2030

California is committing to a plan that will make it the first U.S. state to phase out gas-fueled furnaces and water heaters in homes.

www.latimes.com

This means if a normal homeowner takes a shower at 6pm, they could be contributing to a grid failure! PG&E will advise people to only shower at noon to put less stress on the grid. In less than a decade, 12pm will be when people are advised to:
1) Charge their EV
2) Take a shower
3) Wash their Dishes
4) Cook Dinner
5) Bake Dessert
6) Watch TV
7) Run their AC
Hope everyone is working from home by 2030.

Orrrrrr someone can get solar + batteries and live normally! So to make this kind of related to this sub... please make sure everyone you talk to about energy goes out there and gets solar + batteries! Tell them the "ROI" will be that they can shower whenever they want.

BTW, the Inflation Reduction Act also has provisions to incentivize electric water heating. So hopefully the people in this sub will look into converting water heating to electric in 2023.

Guess my propane stuff is okay?

 

[holeydonut]

Guess my propane stuff is okay?

You'll be un-pleased to learn the full policy language is attempting to limit the Global Warning Potential (GWP) rating on equipment. Of which both Natural Gas and Propane are on the "naughty" side of the GWP rating.

Maybe California will make an exemption for people who live in distant/poorly-serviced areas? Who knows.

 

[Vines]

Guess my propane stuff is okay?

Until I read this I was down with propane.
Why Gas Stoves Are More Hazardous Than We’ve Been Led to Believe

Looking backward, with us ditching fossil fuels, ditching propane is a natural evolution. It used to be that unless there was propane, we had no hot water during our frequent power outages. Our Bosch propane on demand heater has been awesome for 13 years now, but when it dies I will use a HPWH instead. I might even replace it sooner if I see some good incentives with the IRA coming.

Same with our propane stove, it used to be critical that we could still eat if the power was out, but now with 5 Powerwalls and a PV expansion planned soon we will have plenty of power. We are looking at the induction cooktops, and will be looking out for any government money to help offset the costs of replacement.

Finally, we would love a couple of mini-splits, and then the last of our propane space heaters could go away. At that point we could cancel our propane service!

 

[h2ofun]

Until I read this I was down with propane.
Why Gas Stoves Are More Hazardous Than We’ve Been Led to Believe

Looking backward, with us ditching fossil fuels, ditching propane is a natural evolution. It used to be that unless there was propane, we had no hot water during our frequent power outages. Our Bosch propane on demand heater has been awesome for 13 years now, but when it dies I will use a HPWH instead. I might even replace it sooner if I see some good incentives with the IRA coming.

Same with our propane stove, it used to be critical that we could still eat if the power was out, but now with 5 Powerwalls and a PV expansion planned soon we will have plenty of power. We are looking at the induction cooktops, and will be looking out for any government money to help offset the costs of replacement.

Finally, we would love a couple of mini-splits, and then the last of our propane space heaters could go away. At that point we could cancel our propane service!

All I have left propane is new stop top, water heater, spa heater, and generator. So, will never get rid of it. I am trying to get a bid on putting some instant on electric water heaters for my spa heat loop, and hot water, but will leave the propane stuff.

 

[DrGriz]

Until I read this I was down with propane.
Why Gas Stoves Are More Hazardous Than We’ve Been Led to Believe

Looking backward, with us ditching fossil fuels, ditching propane is a natural evolution. It used to be that unless there was propane, we had no hot water during our frequent power outages. Our Bosch propane on demand heater has been awesome for 13 years now, but when it dies I will use a HPWH instead. I might even replace it sooner if I see some good incentives with the IRA coming.

Same with our propane stove, it used to be critical that we could still eat if the power was out, but now with 5 Powerwalls and a PV expansion planned soon we will have plenty of power. We are looking at the induction cooktops, and will be looking out for any government money to help offset the costs of replacement.

Finally, we would love a couple of mini-splits, and then the last of our propane space heaters could go away. At that point we could cancel our propane service!

We have had horrific, and I mean horrific, deaths due to propane in our small community nearly yearly over the last decade. That's not including the fires and mass CO poisonings that end up short of deaths. The article just adds to the evidence.

 

[RKCRLR]

Until I read this I was down with propane.
Why Gas Stoves Are More Hazardous Than We’ve Been Led to Believe

Looking backward, with us ditching fossil fuels, ditching propane is a natural evolution. It used to be that unless there was propane, we had no hot water during our frequent power outages. Our Bosch propane on demand heater has been awesome for 13 years now, but when it dies I will use a HPWH instead. I might even replace it sooner if I see some good incentives with the IRA coming.

Same with our propane stove, it used to be critical that we could still eat if the power was out, but now with 5 Powerwalls and a PV expansion planned soon we will have plenty of power. We are looking at the induction cooktops, and will be looking out for any government money to help offset the costs of replacement.

Finally, we would love a couple of mini-splits, and then the last of our propane space heaters could go away. At that point we could cancel our propane service!

I use propane for my hybrid HVAC system, tankless water heater, stove, and dryer. I'd like to get rid of it but PG&E is too unreliable where I live. My PG&E service was down for nearly a week last winter (and some neighbors didn't get power restored for weeks) and my solar panels were covered with snow. I'll go 100% electric when PG&E becomes 100% reliable.

 

[Vines]

I use propane for my hybrid HVAC system, tankless water heater, stove, and dryer. I'd like to get rid of it but PG&E is too unreliable where I live. My PG&E service was down for nearly a week last winter (and some neighbors didn't get power restored for weeks) and my solar panels were covered with snow. I'll go 100% electric when PG&E becomes 100% reliable.

Luckily we never see any snow at this elevation, at least none to speak of.

For me the stove is the priority since it vents to the inside of the house. Hot water heater and dryer both vent to the exterior appropriately so they're less of an issue.
Once we get the second PV system interconnected I think we could live off the grid entirely. It will be interesting to test this winter when we have our usual outages.

 

[jboy210]

Luckily we never see any snow at this elevation, at least none to speak of.

For me the stove is the priority since it vents to the inside of the house. Hot water heater and dryer both vent to the exterior appropriately so they're less of an issue.
Once we get the second PV system interconnected I think we could live off the grid entirely. It will be interesting to test this winter when we have our usual outages.

Hopefully this winter will be like it is for us. We mostly know the power is out because we get a notification on our phones. Then we run to windows and say, "Yep power is out across the street. What do you want to watch on TV?"

 

[roblab]

Until I read this I was down with propane.
Why Gas Stoves Are More Hazardous Than We’ve Been Led to Believe

Looking backward, with us ditching fossil fuels, ditching propane is a natural evolution. It used to be that unless there was propane, we had no hot water during our frequent power outages. Our Bosch propane on demand heater has been awesome for 13 years now, but when it dies I will use a HPWH instead. I might even replace it sooner if I see some good incentives with the IRA coming.

Same with our propane stove, it used to be critical that we could still eat if the power was out, but now with 5 Powerwalls and a PV expansion planned soon we will have plenty of power. We are looking at the induction cooktops, and will be looking out for any government money to help offset the costs of replacement.

Finally, we would love a couple of mini-splits, and then the last of our propane space heaters could go away. At that point we could cancel our propane service!

We love our mini splits! Save money heating/cooling only the room we're in (400 sq. ft.) rather than the whole house (2400 sq. ft.). TV in bedroom, that's where we live.

 

[DrGriz]

Luckily we never see any snow at this elevation, at least none to speak of.

For me the stove is the priority since it vents to the inside of the house. Hot water heater and dryer both vent to the exterior appropriately so they're less of an issue.
Once we get the second PV system interconnected I think we could live off the grid entirely. It will be interesting to test this winter when we have our usual outages.

Hope you have a CO monitor

Carbon monoxide leak at vacation rental in Idaho sends 25 to hospital

Authorities say 25 people were hospitalized for carbon monoxide poisoning while staying at a vacation rental home in an Idaho mountain town.

www.usatoday.com

We really had to scramble to get high flow oxygen (which is the treatment) for that many people. Some had to wait for it to come 100 miles, or be transfered.

 

[STS-134]

You'll be un-pleased to learn the full policy language is attempting to limit the Global Warning Potential (GWP) rating on equipment. Of which both Natural Gas and Propane are on the "naughty" side of the GWP rating.

Maybe California will make an exemption for people who live in distant/poorly-serviced areas? Who knows.

Propane (R-290) actually has a very low GWP (around 3-4, with CO2 set as 1.00 for reference). That's why some refrigerators, mainly the ones at supermarkets that hold drinks near the checkout stands, use it as a refrigerant. I think the requirements are that you have to have less than half a kilogram of charge in order to use R-290 because it is flammable and odorless, which is a hazardous combination. By comparison, R-22 harmed the ozone (ozone depletion potential or ODP of about 0.05, which is 5% of the previous refrigerant, R-11, whose ODP was set at 1.00). R-410A (R-22's replacement that has been mainstream for about 10 years now) has a GWP even higher than R-22, at around 2000 (R-22's GWP is ~1800) but a ODP of zero. The main purpose of switching from R-22 to R-410A was to get rid of the chlorine atom, which is what destroys the ozone when the molecules break apart in the upper atmosphere.

R-410A is being replaced by R-454B, probably around 2025. R-454B has a GWP of around 600-700, so it's only about 1/4 to 1/3 of that of R-410A, but is mildly flammable (a so called A2L refrigerant). Some of the best refrigerants around are the flammable hydrocarbons or toxic substances like ammonia because of their vaporization and condensation pressure/temperature combinations, and the fact that they all have very low GWPs and zero ODPs, but for the past 100 years we've primarily used artificial substances as refrigerants that are neither toxic nor flammable because of concerns about what would happen if the system develops a leak. All of them have either contributed to global warming or destroyed the ozone or both, much more so than flammable or toxic refrigerants. Going forward, I think we're going to start using substances like propane and ammonia and there is simply going to be better monitoring (like leak detection systems that warn people if refrigerant is filling the occupied space and/or pressure sensors that can detect leaks and alert the homeowner).

 

[Vines]

Hope you have a CO monitor

Carbon monoxide leak at vacation rental in Idaho sends 25 to hospital

Authorities say 25 people were hospitalized for carbon monoxide poisoning while staying at a vacation rental home in an Idaho mountain town.

www.usatoday.com

We really had to scramble to get high flow oxygen (which is the treatment) for that many people. Some had to wait for it to come 100 miles, or be transfered.

We do have them in every room, linked battery-powered units that report where the alert is across our whole house. Until a year ago, we never even had a vent hood over our stove. Our home was a cabin first built in 1906 so the solution was to open the dutch door and the window behind the stove lol.

That was a real pain in the winter, and because of the location of the window, we had to install a vent fan designed for an island range so it has no backing. Very happy with getting the heat, fumes and airborne oils out of the house now with this upgrade.

I wonder if canned O2 like climbers use would be a possibility as a stopgap measure in case that happened again? I agree that the best solution is for us humans to transition away from all fossil fuels where possible.

 

[P.S.S.]

Here’s an out of the box idea - California should allow power plants that can run 24/7 to be built. Instead they import coal and natural gas power from neighboring states.

 

[ThomasD]

Are they banning propane grills and camping stoves

 

[nwdiver]

This means if a normal homeowner (edit: who has electric water heating but no solar+ESS) takes a shower at 6pm, they could be contributing to a grid failure!

Fortunately this is SUPER-easy to avoid with the correct electric water heater.

This cropped up on my Facebook feed... not sure if it was intentional but it looks like they're fishing for prospective model 3 owners...

What really irritates me is how they take advantage of general ignorance around water heaters. 99% efficient sounds good to the lay person but that's a COP of <1 which is TERRIBLE from the perspective of a modern water heater. Heat Pump Water Heaters START at ~2 and go up from there.

Besides low efficiency... tankless heaters are BRUTLE on the grid. No one is going to schedule their shower around off-peak hours. You can use a heat pump water heater to store energy and schedule it to heat water during off-peak hours. Some tankless heaters can pull up to 18kW when heating water. It doesn't take many simultaneous showers to really start adding up.

 

[h2ofun]

Luckily we never see any snow at this elevation, at least none to speak of.

For me the stove is the priority since it vents to the inside of the house. Hot water heater and dryer both vent to the exterior appropriately so they're less of an issue.
Once we get the second PV system interconnected I think we could live off the grid entirely. It will be interesting to test this winter when we have our usual outages.

I assume you have gas heating?

 

[DrGriz]

We do have them in every room, linked battery-powered units that report where the alert is across our whole house. Until a year ago, we never even had a vent hood over our stove. Our home was a cabin first built in 1906 so the solution was to open the dutch door and the window behind the stove lol.

That was a real pain in the winter, and because of the location of the window, we had to install a vent fan designed for an island range so it has no backing. Very happy with getting the heat, fumes and airborne oils out of the house now with this upgrade.

I wonder if canned O2 like climbers use would be a possibility as a stopgap measure in case that happened again? I agree that the best solution is for us humans to transition away from all fossil fuels where possible.

Good that you have the monitors.

No, the canned oxygen would not be enough to displace the CO bound to hemoglobin all by itself, and they run only 100-200 seconds continuous.

 

[Electrph]

Looks like Californian's will only be getting electric water heaters by 2030...

California moves to ban natural gas furnaces and heaters by 2030

California is committing to a plan that will make it the first U.S. state to phase out gas-fueled furnaces and water heaters in homes.

www.latimes.com

This means if a normal homeowner (edit: who has electric water heating but no solar+ESS) takes a shower at 6pm, they could be contributing to a grid failure! PG&E will advise people to only shower at noon to put less stress on the grid. In less than a decade, 12pm will be when people are advised to:
1) Charge their EV
2) Take a shower
3) Wash their Dishes
4) Cook Dinner
5) Bake Dessert
6) Watch TV
7) Run their AC
Hope everyone is working from home by 2030.

Orrrrrr someone can get solar + batteries and live normally! So to make this kind of related to this sub... please make sure everyone you talk to about energy goes out there and gets solar + batteries! Tell them the "ROI" will be that they can shower whenever they want.

BTW, the Inflation Reduction Act also has provisions to incentivize electric water heating. So hopefully the people in this sub will look into converting water heating to electric in 2023.

Orrrrr … homeowners could step into this decade of water heater tech and get a heat pump / hybrid water heater … uses about 300-400w running in heat pump mode … can even be set to not run at all during certain hours say peak time

 

[Electrph]

Fortunately this is SUPER-easy to avoid with the correct electric water heater.

I have access to cheap (for now at least) ng but replacing my ng water heater with a heat pump hybrid water heater is one of the most satisfying purchases I’ve made…. I love the “ free ‘ hot water with my solar .. and the controllability / adaptability of the water heater is awesome